Discussion About Our 2nd Admendment

[Sig]

I posted earlier I was sending a note off to Wayne, Chris and Sandy, at the NRA. Well it was far from a note, more like a burning letter.

 

This afternoon the phone rings and the caller id showed something in VA. Hmmm this should be interesting so I picked up. It was Scott Christman calling on behalf of Chris Cox, from the NRA. I certainly had someones attention and appreciated a real voice. I listened to his explanation regarding my points. I am not going to try and state his position here point by point. Frankly I could not do it justice and more importantly I believe we should all call them on the carpet ANYTIME we do not believe they are supporting us, AND get your own personal response. This is most important.

 

Scott went into a reasonable explanation regarding past bills won and lost, polictical situation past and present and more, bottom line he indicated that they are not advocating any registration requirements for private sales, I would concur with him now. On the comments regarding MG ownership registration and the conflicting messages in the survey with other firearm registration, Scott admitted he could see how the survey statements could be misinterpreted and that they would consider that in future surveys.

 

In the end I truly believe he and hopefully more within the NRA later, clearly understood that I did not appreciate the survery as it was. I admitted it was not likely to make all NRA members happy but we should not give up one class of firearm owner to protect another. Now his words were that he agreed, we could all argue that history does not necessarily show that. On the other hand the NRA does not make law they are lobbyists on our behalf. I believe if we all make it known our positions we will get more support from the NRA or anyone such as a politician. The more the better.

 

Curiously did anyone else send off anything to the NRA?

 

On another note I also sent off an email to my state Senator and Congresswoman over the Christmas holiday, on an ID theft issue. Reason was, I found out recently that my name and SS# was in a compromised database, from a very big public institution hacking. My request was to ask for their support to sponsor legislation to allow a credit freeze in our state. A credit freeze would virtually eliminate any chance of ID theft as no one is going to pass credit without a credit check, a credit freeze stops any possibility of a credit check without your personal direct authorization. I had 3 emails back from both indicating they would look into it. Guess what, on the news today I hear that pending legislation may be passed to allow this type of protection. We will see if it passes.

 

Sometimes these elected officials do help us and maybe just maybe we could get a bit further if we all wrote off to our elected officials and let them know our position.

[Mario Scarpino]

TAS1921AC you are right!

 

Every week I get new crap from the NRA. All they want is more money!! I usually extend my membership around election time as I hope the NRA can use the money to keep the anti-Second Amend goons out of office. I extended about 5 months ago for another 4 or 5 years (whatever it is). In the deal, I get an official NRA knife in a nice wooden box for my effort. They were out of them so I get it 3 months later. I get the damn thing and its made in china!!! Nice to know the NRA is supporting the chinese. I guess they expect me to send them more money so they can buy more commie crap to give away to its members. It would have been better if they had given me nothing! I will have a real tough time giving them any more of my money. Are the election results of 2006 a reflection on the NRA???

 

Mario

[Z3BigDaddy]

QUOTE (Mario Scarpino @ Jan 9 2007, 08:28 PM)

I get the damn thing and its made in china!!! Nice to know the NRA is supporting the chinese. I guess they expect me to send them more money so they can buy more commie crap to give away to its members.

Yeppers not unlike, although it should be unlike, the rest of the good ole USofA, most of the products they offer are made in massmurderland... You got to be careful buying NRA logo stuff as they will note if it is "imported". My Millienum Edition Edowment member knife sits out in the barn to cut bale string and open feed bags.... I don't want it in the house but it's ok out in the barn with my wifes expensive grass mowing and fertilizer machines...

[21 smoker]

Sig,

 

I`m impressed with both your actions taken and the reactions given.To get a response from the NRA and your reginal government representative is both remarkable and inspiring.That is putting "your money where you mouth is". Now the rest of here need to follow your example and do the same. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/iagree.gif

[Sig]

thanks 21 smoker

 

based on some of the earlier responses regarding the NRA, I would hope a few did something similar.

the more that do, the closer we can get NRA to towards a no compromise organization, the better.

if anyone does that and sees "DC Suburb VA" in their caller ID, then another point will have been heard

 

I understand that not all agree with the NRA on all counts. I personally believe there is no stronger organization working on our behalf.

my preference is to let the NRA know my position rather than trying to cut off our nose to spite our face, if we all get my drift

 

I am personally driven on the ID theft issue as I believe it to be my best protection option, so the news was in fact refreshing.

What I do not want to happen is find out down the road that my ID was in fact being used and then regret I did not do something like this.

 

[Grey Crow]

Unfortunately compromise is how Washington works, give a little, take a little.

 

The NRA's view is most likely give up the NFA items for the benefit of the larger community of the general sportsman.

 

I'm not in favor of giving up anything in the area of arms. If a person can afford a tank, well then so be it. But I think I would not allow nukes, and the like.

[October1971]

Re NRA, we're caught between a rock and a hard place. They carry tremendous clout WHEN THEY WANT TO at the national political level. But as they get more and more stubborn and unbending, then those of us that aren't politically correct (NFA) get the dregs.

 

If it wouldn't hurt the overall cause for gun owners, it would be interesting to "take the fight public" by getting as much RATIONAL information out to as many people as possible and maybe, just maybe the NRA wouldn't like the publicity they'd get. ( negative. )

 

The Liberals would probably love a public division within the NRA. I'm not sure it would really hurt us.

But I do think trying to change the NRA from within is going to be a decades-long task.

 

Surely there is some other way to put pressure on them, externally. I just don't have a clue how we can do that right now.

 

One possibility is that ALL gunowners ought to start pressuring NRA to be more aggressive in the whole area of the Second Amendment fight, which would ultimately help NFA owners also.

 

I have never liked the fact that they concentrate so much on hunters and sporting use of firearms while at the same time not being more forceful on 2nd amendment rights. Hunting and sporting rights MUST be protected. But the 2nd amendment is about non-sporting rights, and that should be their first priority.

 

What a dilemma.

[Z3BigDaddy]

Hunting rights are just another freedom the NRA has chosen to defend but their position, since the Cincy thing, has been that "the Second Amendment is not about hunting". As far as I'm concened the less non-gun people who know I can by law own a full auto firearm the happier I am.... You all know the constant stupid discussions that go on about class III stuff.... I have a couple Tommys, a Bren and a 1919 on the credenza(sp?) behind my desk and some of the thoughts that are exchanged from people that see them bogle the mind. Haven't lost any customers over em yet, unlike my dead animals hangin from the walll.... Hell look at the well intentioned mis-information that goes on here from time to time and we're supposed to be a bit smarter than the norm....

 

Anyhow go to the NRA website check the issues/topics link and I think that will give you a fair idea of the NRA's public stance....

[Bruce V 21/28]

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on U.S. vs Fincher?

[Bruce V 21/28]

Phil, as you requested, below is a recent brief article posted on Subguns.

 

 

The Morning News

Local News for Northwest Arkansas

 

Judge refuses to allow militia leader's testimony

By Ron Wood

The Morning News

 

FAYETTEVILLE -- Hollis Wayne Fincher's machine gun trial will go to the jury today with the defense having presented no evidence or witnesses to the jury.

 

The defense rested Thursday after U.S. District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren ruled Fincher's proposed testimony inadmissible.

 

Fincher testified for more than an hour with the jury out of the courtroom so Hendren could decide if his testimony was admissible.

 

Hendren has repeatedly ruled the defense can attack the government's evidence but not the law that applies to the case. He also ruled, based on U.S. Supreme Court precedents, laws passed by Congress to regulate firearms do not violate the Second Amendment.

 

After hearing Fincher out, Hendren decided the testimony was aimed at challenging the legality of federal gun laws, not if Fincher had illegal, unregistered firearms in his possession.

 

Fincher maintains possession of the guns, which he does not deny, should not be criminalized because their possession was "reasonably related to a well regulated militia," based on the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 

Fincher said the group would have been "derelict" not to use inexpensive, available and effective military weaponry to protect their homes and state.

 

According to police, Fincher had two .308-caliber machine guns, homemade versions of the Browning model 1919. The other firearms were 9 mm STEN design submachine guns and a sawed-off shotgun.

 

"They were an ideal machine gun for a militia," Fincher said.

 

While the defense has tried to make the case an issue of the Constitution versus federal gun laws, the government has tried to make the case as simple as possible for jurors -- Fincher had the machine guns and they weren't registered as required by federal law.

 

A major issue has been whether the Militia of Washington County is a valid state militia for second amendment purposes. Hendren ruled it's not.

 

A state militia is an arm of the government under the governor who appoints officers at his discretion, according to case law. Former Gov. Mike Huckabee provided prosecutors a letter saying there was no recognized relationship between the state and the Militia of Washington County.

 

Fincher argued the group notified the governor it was forming and acquiring weapons and when he didn't respond in 10 days, they had the state's approval.

 

Hendren said members appear to have the best interest of their state and country at heart, but the outfit is, at best, an unorganized and unregulated militia.

 

Thursday morning, a federal firearms expert testified guns seized by federal agents at Fincher's Washington County home are machine guns as defined by federal law and are not properly registered.

 

"It's a machine gun," Earl Griffith, a firearms expert with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, told jurors as he examined one of the guns seized.

 

Fincher said he had assembled about 10 of the Brownings and 50 of the STENs for the militia.

 

The Browning 1919s were originally made for the U.S. military and later sold to Israel, where they were modified to fire a .308-caliber round, Griffith said. They were later decommissioned and sold to dealers, who can legally sell the guns in the United States as "parts kits," minus the right-side plates that allow them to function as a fully automatic machine gun.

 

Plans and templates for the side plate are readily available on the Internet and were seized from Fincher's house, Griffith said.

 

The STEN-type guns were likely decommissioned guns from Britian sold as parts kits that were assembled here, Griffith said.

 

The shotgun, a common Remington design that was modified, is too short to be legal unless properly registered, Griffith said.

 

It's been illegal for civilians to own machine guns without permission from the U.S. Treasury Department since 1934.

 

Federal law permits the public to own machine guns manufactured and registered before 1986 under certain conditions. Guns made or imported after that date can be bought by law enforcement agencies but not the public.

 

Each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax and must be registered with the bureau's National Firearms Registry.

 

Both sides will present closing arguments to the jury this morning.

 

Hendren said he is concerned about sending both guns and ammunition to the jury room. He said he'll advise jurors not to explore how the guns operate without a U.S. Marshal present.

 

BTW, I'm not a lawyer, I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately!!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

[giantpanda4]

Open and shut.

 

Sorry. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

[Z3BigDaddy]

+1 http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/iagree.gif with GP4

 

Don't think you need to be an atty to figure out this one.... Sheesh....

[billatlanta]

1-11-07 News Release.

New skewed facts they pick and choose for Anti-gunners.

 

Read this, it'll make your blood boil.

Link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/guns_murders_dc

 

Yeah, probably more firearm homicides in L.A., N.Y., New Orleans, Miami than

Utah, Kansas, etc.

They fail to mention anyone defending themselves, nor no legally owned machine guns used.

 

Notice how they say :

"Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes," said Matthew Miller, assistant professor of health policy and injury prevention, who led the study.

Mr. Miller (Ass Professor) likes to start out "kill children, women bla, bla."

Wonder why he didn't drop the lines "semi-automatic firearms, high capacity magazines, and cop killer bullets-- those are always attention getters.

Just more fuel for the gennerally ignorant population.

Hope this doesn't ruin your nice day.

Bill

 

 

[Z3BigDaddy]

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Jan 14 2007, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Jan 12 2007, 12:38 PM) Don't think you need to be an atty to figure out this one....  Sheesh.... Little daddy. I guess I'm drifting toward compulsive, like you; it's hard to resist the temptation to share with people on the board what I've found out about who, and most importantly what, you are...behind the facade of this fake Internet image you wish you could get strangers to buy.   I'll try to restrain myself a little bit longer...see where you take it...before putting the picture together for everybody in a very graphic way. I don't think you would add much of it to your signature line. It's entertaining, or maybe just sad. Folks on the board would pretty quickly understand where you are coming from, what this is all about, what makes you tick, and where else you try to accomplish this (hopeless) ego repair job.   Now, get out there and try to flog some life insurance next week. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif There must still be a few people in Grants Pass who are dumb enough to go for it. You need to raise a few bucks before those two ancient cars fall apart. Hadready??? Is that you?? I new it was only a matter of time before you followed the path of your mentor....   Don't want to comment on my church at this time?   As for the ancient heaps the one is a 1965 Fairlady low window and a kick in the ass to drive the other a Corvair Rampside pretty rare in its own right... That belongs to my son not me.... http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p178/z3bigdaddy/Z3%20Stuff/bmwcold01.jpg

[Z3BigDaddy]

Man o man do you piss me off!!! I spent a good hour yesterday writing an all out attack on you then you turn into a nice guy*? Life is just not fair I guess.... Yes it is a Fairlady and like I mentioned a kick to drive... The best part is the little mirror on the dash reminds you of all the scenes you see in the old movies using the rear view as the focal point of a driving shot....

 

 

*I saved it in word just in case I have to pull it out later.....

 

I new it was cold out there.... I guess I just didn't realize how cold...... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif

[colt21a]

what that picture need's is a guy holding a thompson in it. kinda like "Little Bohemia."and waiting for the "G"Men to arrive.

 

then running around out back to make the escape..ah heck we can dream right.

 

old car's and old gun's..nothing ever wrong with that..Phil Big Daddy and Little Jr.{ i guess your son.}

 

have fun and keep the history alive. whether it be Gun's or Car's. take care,Ron

[Z3BigDaddy]

QUOTE (hardrede @ Jan 16 2007, 07:07 PM)

QUOTE Hadready??? Is that you?? I new it was only a matter of time before you followed the path of your mentor.... Don't want to comment on my church at this time?   Paranoia-Paranoia is an excessive anxiety or fear concerning one's own well-being which is considered irrational and excessive, perhaps to the point of being a psychosis. This typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a likely threat, or a belief in a conspiracy theory.   More recently, the clinical use of the term has been used to describe delusions where the affected person believes they are being persecuted. Specifically, they have been defined as containing two central elements:   The individual thinks that harm is occurring, or is going to occur, to him or her. The individual thinks that the persecutor has the intention to cause harm. Paranoia is often associated with psychotic illnesses, particularly schizophrenia, although attenuated features may be present in other primarily non-psychotic diagnoses, such as paranoid personality disorder.     Figure it out, Einstein, if it doesn't have my name attached, then I didn't post it!!! FWIW You are not important enough to warrant that much thought or attention by ANYONE! Dood you don't make a very good lurker... Do you really think I thought you were Phil? What an ego.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif You kinda have to put all three sentences together to get the whole message.... Good grief..... But hey what do I know I'm still trying to figger out what my "fake internet image" is?

[RECON0321]

You can plead with the NRA, make demands of your politicians to listen and stand up for you, but at what point does each and every man decide when he has had enough? When they take his airplane remote control away? This just keeps going in circles. Each generation looks back at the good times and the next one is clueless that there were good times, they've grown up not knowing what it was like to go to the woods without the Forest Service following you around or going to a gun show where they really had guns on every table. We just knuckle under, pay the fees and go about our everyday life, trying to forget that this isn't how we grew up. 95% of the people don't give a damn what happens, as long as they get fed on time and can watch TV every night. Tell them they're free and they really believe it, no one ever really goes out to test the theory. And you hope the laws might change. Dream on!

[RECON0321]

I think what really amazes me the most is that we are the most heavily armed nation on earth and we kneel at the feet of politicians begging for our rights. There is something totally wrong with this picture.

[Norm]

QUOTE (RECON0321 @ Jan 19 2007, 11:37 PM)

I think what really amazes me the most is that we are the most heavily armed nation on earth and we kneel at the feet of politicians begging for our rights. There is something totally wrong with this picture.

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/conformity.jpg

[RECON0321]

Now that I'm done laughing and wiping the tears out of my eyes, I want to thank you for posting MY favorite quote. My greatest fear is that we will all just sit on our hands and watch this great nation slip away because not one soul had the courage to stand up and start something.We may complain about the illegal aliens, but last summer they showed the rest of us what solidarity was about. I believe it was over 50,000 of them marched in L.A. in support of illegal reform laws. We can't get 100 gun owners to show up for anything, let alone 50,000. I know lots show up at Camp Perry and the NRA convention, but when it gets real serious, everyone seems to have this"Who me?" attitude. Everyone I talk to says they won't take our guns away, their hunting rifles are safe and normal people shouldn't own machine guns anyway. Since 1934 not ONE gun law has been rescinded or worked in our favor. The AWB was dropped only because it expired all on it's own. This administration has done nothing in the name of the gun owners, yet we are supposed to support their do nothing campaign. If it weren't for the fact I shoot NRA high power, I would drop my membership as fast as I could and put alot of distance between me and those parasites. I think the first step for ALL of us is to stop sending money to any of these leeches. They have become so comfortable living off of donated money, we have created an entire generation of parasitic organizations that do nothing but take in money and do a little lobbying to justify their existance. Now we need an anti-NRA gun owners organization. Back to the KISS method.

[Sig]

Just wanted to post another followup on this.

I received a letter yesterday from Eric at the NRA-ILA on behalf of Wayne LaPierre, so my second response.

Without retyping the entire letter Eric goes into bills they have supported in the 109th Congress including:

H.R. 5005 (makes more MG's available for testing, research and development), worked with both Senate and House appropriation committees on the accuracy of the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, also indicates in 2007 the House Appropriations Committee report has language supporting an audit, and supported H.R. 2088 Veteran Heritage Firearms Act.

 

There are other points, bottom line I believe I made my concerns known upstairs to the NRA and will do so again if I believe we are getting the raw end of the stick.

 

Also I have received notice of draft legislation to be submitted in my state proposing the identity theft legislation I was seeking.

 

If we do not ask or call these leaders out, we will never get action, whether NRA or our elected representatives. If we believe the NRA or Congress is not supporting the direction needed, have you made your thoughts known beyond voting such as through letters or calls?

 

 

[Walter63a]

Have any of you been following what Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, (D) New York, and friends are up to lately? I just came upon this at Free Republic. If this woman and her freaky ideas don't make your blood boil, I don't know what will!!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif

 

Article & comments: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1787856/posts

 

These commies never give up on their quest to remove all freedoms Americans have fought and died for over the past 200 years+. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif