sgfa4ever Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'd like to know why it is everyone seems to desire the West Hurley models of Thompson over the Kahr Arms models, they are basically the same or not, and neither one is true Thompson, correct? Yet the West Hurley models seem to bring and be worth more money, and certainly more desired, is it because they are older, is there a difference that I am missing, I realize this forum is supposed to be Thompson SMG but someone with alot more knowledge than I have please enlighten me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I believe most people prefer the West Hurley Semi Auto's because they actually work. If you read back over the posts on this board related to Kahrs record of poor quality and customer service, it will give you a better understanding of why the WH Guns are more sought after (IMOHO). I am stating this from several personal bad experiences with New Kahr Products I have purchased and their remidies (or lack of) to the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 In my experience with several West Hurley semi autos, I have yet to see any of them not chamber rounds properly or misfire (as long as the magazine fits correctly and / or the drum works) I have no personal experience with Kahr, but from what I've heard on this board, I guess that I never will. I don't care what some people might say, but in my opinion, if you are looking for a semi auto Thompson, the West Hurley models are the ones to find. Just my $0.02 Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUNGUY45 Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I have no experience with any Kahr product, that said, I have owned a W. Hurley semi. M1 Thompson since 1990. The first year I had a few problems with the gun, and A.O. was very helpful, they did everything possible to satisfy me as a customer. From what I read, on this site, Kahr is not so helpful. The gun did have problems, however, once worked through it has performed fairly well. Maybe if Kahr worked with their customers, their guns would end up working OK too. Who knows, pigs might fly someday. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Pete A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 sgfa4ever, One of the nice things about the older Westys were the use of GI surplus parts in manufacture, directly from Numrich. From the GI wood to triggers, bolts, sights, etc... True, they were mutts, but they seemed to work quite well. Mine was purchased in 1975, ran and ran until about 2002, when something internal got chewed up. P.K. took care of that, and pimped the gun big-time. I don't forsee having any other problems for the next 20 years. Best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroader Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Speaking of Semi West Hurleys, does anyone have an idea of what one would be worth, along with a West Hurley 50 round drum. I believe the one I have in mind was refered to as the Delux Model. I'm asking, because someone I work with has one, and is interested in selling it. Railroader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgfa4ever Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Thanks to everyone for the help and replies, from what everyone is saying is the same as I have been reading elsewhere, seems to all boil down to a matter of reliability and of course standing behind a product, I do appreciate all the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Railroader It's kind of hard to say what it might be worth because some West Hurley's came with some nice parts, like what ZAMM said. If it has a real Lyman sight on it and in good shape, I would give anywhere from 900-1200 just for the gun. Then add in the accessories; i.e. Drums, Clips and spare parts or other mods done to it and the price will go up. I got my 27 Westy for 700 bucks about 8 years ago and that came with 2 Drums, case and a bunch of xx and xxx clips( divorce special). Then Kahr took over some time after 1999 http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif . And the Saga has never gotten any better for Kahr, I will never buy a Kahr anything, including the 100 rnd drum!!. I am looking for a M1 Westy just to add in. Seen some at a gun show and now, of course, they want 1300 + for them new and unfired. Prices for them are on the rise so. If it's a Westy, buy it!!! If it's a Kahr, well they make GREAT boat anchors. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Crow Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I've seen Westies in various states or order, ranging from $500 and upwards to $1,200.00. In 1989 you could buy one NIB for $400.00. Actually they were made when Ira Trast held the company as Numrich never produced a semi for resale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 There always has to be another side to the story. I bought my 1st Kahr (MK9 9MM pistol) back in 2001 and it has more than lived up to my expectations. I'm not sure how many thousands of rounds I have through it with never a hiccup. I had always wanted a Thompson SMG, but due to the cost of the real deal, my options were limited. I read many of the posts on this board per the bad experiences with Kahr. Some had valid problems, many didn't have any actual experiences or some had Kahrs that were built right after they starting producing their Thompson in 1999 (are growing pains an excuse?). Buying a new Kahr produced Thompson seemed like a gamble, but I had also read many horror stories on the semi West Hurley's. It seems both rifles could need a lot of work to make them run. I took the chance and purchased a new Kahr 1927A1 a few months ago. I prob have 400 - 500 rounds through it so far and it has been wonderful. The 50 round drum (new one w/ the hollow shaft) has worked perfectly. I'm not sure if mine is actually in the minority or if you always hear about the bad but seldom about the good. I just wanted to say there is always 2 sides. I'm happy with my purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Crow Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Very true Jeep, The WH's DID have many problems, as do some of the Kahr's. My Kahr 27 had a few problems but nothing serious, that a little tuning couldn't fix. Heck I had more problems with a NIB Kimber Gold Match II, as well as a few Colt's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTravis Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) Well, I've got a 1927A-1 deluxe WH made in the late 1970's and when I first got it, it hadn't been fired much if any. So yeah, when I first started shooting it, I had to get my gunsmith to do some fitting on it to get it to run right, on both it and its drum. But once done, it worked great, and I've been happy with it since (especially since my smith is an 07 manufactuer and did an SBR on it recently). As far as value goes, everything is relative to what someone will give and how bad you want it. Kahrs are current production, so the price is somewhat fixed. West Hurley guns are a different animal; while the "real" Thompson full auto guys may turn their noses up, for the rest of us, the supply of WH guns is limited and while you may find a bargin, to get one that is in good working order and with accessories, you may well have to spend a chunk of change. Take mine for example, with the SBR and old style cutts, detachable stock, one of Bill Richardson's round cocking knobs, 5 30 round Seymour stick mags, 1 50 round WH drum and repo FBI hard case. If you go on Kahr's sight and ordered the same set-up, you'd be looking at slightly over $3000 retail for all of it brand new (plus the $200 tax stamp). And that's for a Kahr that would likely need work out of the box. But look at what you've got when you're finished! So what's it worth? I really have no interest in selling mine, but the point is that you can get a Thompson that looks a LOT like the originals but in a legal semi-auto SBR for about a 1/5 of the price of an original. I consider that to be a bargin in EITHER brand. And in the end, it is better to have a Thompson than to not have one. After all, Ryan isn't going to save himself now, is he? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Edited February 7, 2007 by JTravis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolman Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 QUOTE (Jeep @ Feb 6 2007, 09:57 PM) There always has to be another side to the story. I bought my 1st Kahr (MK9 9MM pistol) back in 2001 and it has more than lived up to my expectations. I'm not sure how many thousands of rounds I have through it with never a hiccup. I had always wanted a Thompson SMG, but due to the cost of the real deal, my options were limited. I read many of the posts on this board per the bad experiences with Kahr. Some had valid problems, many didn't have any actual experiences or some had Kahrs that were built right after they starting producing their Thompson in 1999 (are growing pains an excuse?). Buying a new Kahr produced Thompson seemed like a gamble, but I had also read many horror stories on the semi West Hurley's. It seems both rifles could need a lot of work to make them run. I took the chance and purchased a new Kahr 1927A1 a few months ago. I prob have 400 - 500 rounds through it so far and it has been wonderful. The 50 round drum (new one w/ the hollow shaft) has worked perfectly. I'm not sure if mine is actually in the minority or if you always hear about the bad but seldom about the good. I just wanted to say there is always 2 sides. I'm happy with my purchases. jeep, I'm with you I have a kahr set up & it is just what i wanted , at a good price., no trouble out of it, so far drum or gun. I am so impressed that i was wondering about the kahr 1911 , but was hesitant to ask here , seems that kahr gets a bashing here , even though mine & yours seems OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I think Kahr will always get a bashing here because of the crap they pulled on US consumers with their 50rnd drum. They will not fix the problems. They just replace a bad Drum with another bad Drum. I gave up on sending mine back (4 times). It makes a great display drum. Luckily I have a WW2 drum. I wish we all can come together on a class action///. That's my real reason for not buying their SHIT!!! My Westy did have few hicups (jamming) every now and then. Not anymore. It did fall apart too http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif . The comp sight would shoot loose and the rear sight hinge pin would shoot loose or walk it's way out. The front grip was "Slab Like" It didn't fit anybody's hands that well, same for the rear grip. So, all of that has been REPLACED with the good stuff. Deerslayers wood (fancey), Lyman rear sight, Doug Richardson front comp, chopped down barrel 16 oal with comp and cocking lever. 1928 lower receiver ( not done with that yet) What would you pay for that?? Not selling it either. But it does have everything most people are wanting to do for their look alike Tommy's. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://img101.imagevenue.com/img.php?image...2_122_147lo.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in VA Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 QUOTE (toolman @ Feb 7 2007, 08:20 AM) jeep, I'm with you I have a kahr set up & it is just what i wanted , at a good price., no trouble out of it, so far drum or gun. I am so impressed that i was wondering about the kahr 1911 , but was hesitant to ask here , seems that kahr gets a bashing here , even though mine & yours seems OK. I don't anyone here is going out and bashing Kahr over their Thompson rifles because "they're not real Thompsons." Rather, most of us who've spoken ill about Kahr's Thompson rifles have spoken out of first-hand knowledge, either from having owned them, worked on them, or fired them. I know that the two that I have handled and fired (and repaired) suffered QC issues such as out-of-spec parts (poorly machined extractor slots, ill-fitting safeties, sights, and compensators, poorly modified magazines, etc...), lack of crafstmanship (loose compensators and sights, rough metal finish/rough wood finish, "blocky"/mis-shapen wood, poor metal-to-wood fit, etc...), poorly formed and unreliable drums, the list goes on... Likewise, I've read enough posts on other forums wherein the Kahr Thompson owner has asked about how to rectify reliability/performance issues as well as how to repair a brand new rifle, and about many of the very same issues you'll find mentioned in this forum. Perhaps it wouldn't such an issue if Kahr sold the gun for a lower price, but for the prices they charge (upwards of $700-$800), I would expect that it should be much more reliable, parts shouldn't fall off the gun after a magazine or two (or less), and that the fit and finish of the rifle would commensurate with the price. As usual, YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAS1921AC Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 The Februrary 07 issue of Gun World has an article on the Kahr Thompson if anyone's interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supershooter Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 In the past 3 years I've had a dozen Kahr 1927's & M1's pass through my hands. Since I'd read on this forum of their reputed common failures I've made it a point of test firing new guns before putting them into a customer's hands. Of this dozen there was one that had a problem, the trigger was stuck in its rear-most position. Prying it forward was all that it needed and it did not repeat the problem. The drums on the other hand are a 50/50 proposition and Kahr deserves every nasty word said of them for allowing that product on the market. Keep in mind though, that under the new ownership the '27 Thompsons are at least as trouble free as the WH products, AND the woodwork has been improved greatly from the slab sided WH effort and the operating knob has returned to the round knob original style of the full auto original. Any price premium for WH guns should be only due to the collectibility and fixed supply, not any quality factor. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgfa4ever Posted February 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Thanks Rich for the reply and all the replies, I agree with you about the wood that is on the Kahr models, some of them look very nice, frankly I liked the wood better than those found on the WH mods, but the wood is not what makes the weapon work properly, I have another post on here of what I finally chose based on all the information that has been provided to me through this forum and other articles that I have read, I'd already had my eye on it and went ahead and took the plunge and as my other post asks, opinions are appreciated, I think I did well, only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTravis Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Feb 9 2007, 11:59 AM) QUOTE (Supershooter @ Feb 8 2007, 07:24 PM)...Keep in mind though, that under the new ownership... Rich Whoa, Rich, Have I missed something? What "new ownership" of Kahr Arms are you talking about? Is the company no longer owned by the Korean Unification Church ("Moonies"), its "Rev." SUN Myong-mun, and managed by his son Jason? This group has always been responsible for what we know of Kahr quality. Has something changed? Or were you referring to the MUN family as being that "new ownership"...of whatever Thompson manufacturing rights they may feel they have...which has long been a subject of great debate on this board? I thought the whole "Moonie" thing was an urban legend? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/unsure.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 QUOTE (toolman @ Feb 7 2007, 08:20 AM) jeep, I'm with you I have a kahr set up & it is just what i wanted , at a good price., no trouble out of it, so far drum or gun. I am so impressed that i was wondering about the kahr 1911 , but was hesitant to ask here , seems that kahr gets a bashing here , even though mine & yours seems OK. Some people just have to put things down to build themselves up perhaps... The "really" funny thing is some of the most vocal people have never even owned one.... The Khar I had ran good and I had no gripes about fit and finish.... btaim I have a Khar 1911 in the box that I picked up from a guy who bought it for his spouse, she shot it once and complained it was to BIG.... I didn't have any 1911's at the time but now I have them coming out of my wazoo... So bottom line if your interested I'll sell it for what I paid for it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I went to the local gun show today and saw the Kahr 1927 with the detachable butt stock. It looked to be like any other Kahr, as far as the fit and finish goes. The fitting on it seemed pretty well and functioned good. So that's a Plus one for kahr. I like it, but for $1400.00 bucks http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nono.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolman Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 QUOTE (Elbow @ Feb 10 2007, 03:44 PM) I went to the local gun show today and saw the Kahr 1927 with the detachable butt stock. It looked to be like any other Kahr, as far as the fit and finish goes. The fitting on it seemed pretty well and functioned good. So that's a Plus one for kahr. I like it, but for $1400.00 bucks http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nono.gif I'll bet you 1 thing.. I have one with the detachable stock before long! I hope to get a c drum to go with it aslo http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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