Best Reproduction '21 Foregrip?

[mp43sniper]

Are all the repro '21 foregrips the same, or are some better than others? Need help figuring that out and also what's out there for sale. I'm building a replica of the '21 that our local sheriff's dept had from '27 to '05 and stupidly sold. Couldn't afford it, so I'm sacrificing a nice '28A1 kit and building it on a Philly Ord '21 dummy receiver. So far I've found a Lyman sight but didn't grab the front foregrip because I know some weren't made to any sort of spec. I know this will only ever be a dummy and not totally perfect and correct, but the grip stands out there pretty boldly so I'd like it to have the correct contours. Any help is appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Craig

[anticus]

Dan Block can make you any style Thompson stocks or grips. Excellent work and reasonable. If you can find one, Doug Richardson once made a foregip as close to an original 21 as you can get.

[atc310r]

Yeah Doug Richardson from thompsonsmg.com made ones to original specs, but he stopped production for now hopefully he will resume soon......

[darrylta]

I agree with anticus, Dan would be my pick to make the grip. Stay away from the flat sided grips, that shape makes it very obvious that it is a repro.

 

What sets the apart the Colt grips from the GI and copies is the bulbous like shape at the finger groove area leading to a slim profile below the grip mount. Remington did a great job with the design and fit on there grips.

 

If your looking for the "Colt look" you should ask Dan to make you the complete Colt furniture set. Be forewarned that he will need the lower frame, butt plate and butt stock latch to assure a good fit up.

 

-Darryl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mp43sniper]

Thanks everyone. A secondary question - I notice on the photos of the '21 that my town had - the markings were "automatic" and "semi automatic", not full auto and semi auto. Was the "automatic" on all Colt guns? Does anyone do this conversion as well? I could do a very light mill cut to remove the old lettering but it might affect function. Your thoughts?

 

Thanks again,

Craig

[DLansky]

Thompsons with serial numbers of less than 2900 were marked automatic and semi automatic with the selection arrows pointing straight down. Thompsons with higher serial numbers were marked full auto and single and the arrows pointed sideways. there are some exceptions on the arrows but I believe this is generally how they were marked

[Joe H]

"I could do a very light mill cut to remove the old lettering but it might affect function. Your thoughts?"

 

Craig,

 

I'm also working on a 1921 Colt Semi using a 1928a1 kit , a Philly Ord Colt 21 receiver and Dan's foregrip . My kit is a an AO so the Full Auto is on the same line. To be authentic it must be removed and redone on two lines like the original.

 

I don't think a milling cut will do a very good job. It will have to be too deep and it will show up. I've found that you can wash out stamping with a TIG welder at a very low setting. Just enough to melt the metal. No filler wire needed as there was no metal removed during the roll stamping. A little grinding / sanding will give you a surface flush with the original to work with. Give it a try on some scrap before you work on the Thompson frame.

 

Joe

[Mike Hammer]

Doug Richardson's foregrip was excellent. Doug has just stated that he has a new 3D scanning device and has scanned a Colt '21 foregrip to produce an exact copy. If anyone talks to Doug, please ask him when he might get started making them. This, like many other of his projects could still be a long way off from actually being produced, but I hope not because I think he would sell a lot of them.

 

Mike Hammer

[DLansky]

+1 for Dan's reproduction grips. he made a set for me that I can use when I want to take the 21A out to shoot. Very fine work.

[casper]

+1 for Dan's reproduction grips. he made a set for me that I can use when I want to take the 21A out to shoot. Very fine work.

 

yes indeed, Dan's wood is great ,he made several sets for me and I'm very happy with all of them

 

[mp43sniper]

Joe, how were you going to get the correct style stamps on your lower after you remove the old ones?

[Joe H]

Joe, how were you going to get the correct style stamps on your lower after you remove the old ones?

 

Craig,

 

I'm going to engrave them with an old Preiss Pantograph engraver I have. The pantograph engraving looks very close to roll stamp.

 

Joe

 

[JimFromFL]

Dan Block can make you any style Thompson stocks or grips. Excellent work and reasonable. If you can find one, Doug Richardson once made a foregip as close to an original 21 as you can get.

 

Is there a web page?

[RoscoeTurner]

Is there a web page?

 

 

http://naturalistnotebook.com/index.html

[TD.]

Is there any noticeable or objective difference between one of Dan's reproduction Colt fore grips and the fore grips made by Doug Richardson? I have one of Dan's grips and it looks and feels pretty good to me. If Dan is missing something that makes it slightly different from an original Colt fore grip, I am sure he would like to know. Actually, I would too because if the difference is anything substantive, I will commission Dan to make me another Colt clone removing all differences. I like Dan's quality, delivery times and prices!

[deerslayer]

Lots of nice things said here, thanks. From what I recall the story of Doug's grip production (from a knowledgeable third party), they started with a very nice vintage grip, digitized one side, flipped the image (or numbers) to create the other side and thus created the perfect symmetrical grip as only machinery can do. The possible defect being a very slight gap between the wood and metal fit as it touches the front of the receiver.

 

My grip on the other hand, is a copy (from an impression in algenate) of an original grip, thus laid out on the wood, and basically hand made with Mark 1 eyeball control to look like the original colt grip. An extra second here or there can make quite a bit of difference with a power sander…. Thus no two are exactly alike though I try my best to capture the incredible artistry of the design of a colt grip. In my opinion, there had to be almost divine intervention on the hand of the guy that laid out the drawing for these. You look at savage, numrich, west hurley, kahr variations and non fit better or look anything close to the original. Why doesn't Kahr duplicate it? Jealousy I'd say.

 

I have two colt grips here and neither is perfectly symmetrical. I had chances to examine others and thought the same thing on some of them too. I was recently looking at them and relating them to the savage grip (from another post) and I got to wondering if the colt grips were deliberately made to be asymmetrical. They feel better on my left hand than my right (as a right handed gunner would hold the gun). The finger bones are different length from finger tip to palm and thus as you wrap them around the grip, you really do need the wood to be slightly different on each side. On the other hand, this could all be overanalyzing the variation one would see as a handful of craftsman sat down at their tools back in 1920 and made these.

 

Dan

 

[bug]

Lots of nice things said here, thanks. From what I recall the story of Doug's grip production (from a knowledgeable third party), they started with a very nice vintage grip, digitized one side, flipped the image (or numbers) to create the other side and thus created the perfect symmetrical grip as only machinery can do. The possible defect being a very slight gap between the wood and metal fit as it touches the front of the receiver.

 

My grip on the other hand, is a copy (from an impression in algenate) of an original grip, thus laid out on the wood, and basically hand made with Mark 1 eyeball control to look like the original colt grip. An extra second here or there can make quite a bit of difference with a power sander…. Thus no two are exactly alike though I try my best to capture the incredible artistry of the design of a colt grip. In my opinion, there had to be almost divine intervention on the hand of the guy that laid out the drawing for these. You look at savage, numrich, west hurley, kahr variations and non fit better or look anything close to the original. Why doesn't Kahr duplicate it? Jealousy I'd say.

 

I have two colt grips here and neither is perfectly symmetrical. I had chances to examine others and thought the same thing on some of them too. I was recently looking at them and relating them to the savage grip (from another post) and I got to wondering if the colt grips were deliberately made to be asymmetrical. They feel better on my left hand than my right (as a right handed gunner would hold the gun). The finger bones are different length from finger tip to palm and thus as you wrap them around the grip, you really do need the wood to be slightly different on each side. On the other hand, this could all be overanalyzing the variation one would see as a handful of craftsman sat down at their tools back in 1920 and made these.

 

Dan

 

Dan,

 

That's an interesting thought and this is (was) a right-handed world. I have an MP-5 that came with an SEF trigger pack. It's a very comfortable gun to shoot. I picked up a 3 shot burst pack, which is AMBI. I installed it on the gun and was very disappointed. The SEF pack is designed for a right-handed shooter and the grip is quite asymmetrical. The hand swell and contour are noticable. The AMBI packs have a plain jane straight grip which is totally symmetrical and no where near as pleasant for a right-hander to shoot as the SEF . I imagine that there are other examples of this.

 

Bob D

[reconbob]

I am also curious if the Colt grip has the finger grooves slightly

eccentric to match a right handed grip. I have seen grips made this

way - as opposed to being perfectly symetrical with no diference from

either side.

I have buried here in my library of gun stuff an old article from a

1930's American Rifleman where they mention the manufacturing

techniques for stocks in the pre-digital/pre-computer era. Hard to

believe but the contouring was all done by hand. The inletting was

done on machines but the contouring of the blank was done on flap

sandpaper wheels with the operator standing in front of the wheel

manipulating the stock by hand. Big vacuum apparatus took away

the sawdust.

The operators would do any given shape on a trial and error

basis until they had it down and then the rest was, as Dan says,

the Mark 1 eyeball control. Once again art vs. science, and much

faster than any machine.

I will also add that Dan makes great wood not only for the

Thompson but also for other guns such as the BAR.

 

Bob

[gijive]

I am also curious if the Colt grip has the finger grooves slightly

eccentric to match a right handed grip. I have seen grips made this

way - as opposed to being perfectly symetrical with no diference from

either side.

I have buried here in my library of gun stuff an old article from a

1930's American Rifleman where they mention the manufacturing

techniques for stocks in the pre-digital/pre-computer era. Hard to

believe but the contouring was all done by hand. The inletting was

done on machines but the contouring of the blank was done on flap

sandpaper wheels with the operator standing in front of the wheel

manipulating the stock by hand. Big vacuum apparatus took away

the sawdust.

The operators would do any given shape on a trial and error

basis until they had it down and then the rest was, as Dan says,

the Mark 1 eyeball control. Once again art vs. science, and much

faster than any machine.

I will also add that Dan makes great wood not only for the

Thompson but also for other guns such as the BAR.

 

Bob

 

Bob,

 

I can post some close up details of three different Colt grips in a couple of days. I'll try to post something this weekend.

[Norm]

I have a full set of Dan's wood for my gun and a Richardson front grip.

 

Both are excellent.

 

I have had some people swear that Dan's reproduction 1921 stock was real.

 

Norm

[gijive]

I am also curious if the Colt grip has the finger grooves slightly

eccentric to match a right handed grip. I have seen grips made this

way - as opposed to being perfectly symetrical with no diference from

either side.

Bob

 

Bob and others:

 

Here are a series of photos comparing three original Colt front vertical grips and a Colt grip and a WWII 1928 Model Thompson grip. The grips have not been altered, with the exception of cleaning and treatment with boiled linseed oil. No staining or sanding was done to the grips. It is pretty amazing that these grips were hand sanded by the artisans of the day. There is not much variation between the finger grooves on all three Colt grips and it appears to me that the finger grooves were finished the same on both sides of the grip. Any variation seen in the photos are due to perspective (i.e., distance and angle) and reflection of the flash. I have tried to provide representative angles for help in determining the consistency of the sanded finish on the grips.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips1.jpg

 

Right side view of three Colt vertical grips.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips3.jpg

 

Left side view of three Colt vertical grips.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips4.jpg

 

Close up both sides grip on left pictured above.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips5.jpg

 

Close up both sides middle grip pictured above.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips6.jpg

 

Close up both sides grip on right pictured above.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips7.jpg

 

Front view of finger grooves.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips8.jpg

 

Top view all three grips

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips9.jpg

 

Rear view all three grips.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/Coltfrontgrips10.jpg

 

Grips showing contour for palm.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/ColtWWIIgrip.jpg

 

Colt grip on left WWII grip from Savage gun on right.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/ColtWWIIgrip2.jpg

 

Front view Colt grip on left, WWII grip on right.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/ColtWWIIgrip3.jpg

 

Top view WWII grip on left, Colt grip on right.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/ColtWWIIgrip4.jpg

 

Rear view WWII grip on left, Colt grip on right.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/ColtWWIIgrip1.jpg

 

Colt grip on left, WWII grip on right.

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20front%20grips/ColtWWIIgrip5.jpg

 

Comparison view, WWII grip on left, Colt grip on right

 

I hope this helps answer some of the recent discussion questions on original grips. There is nothing like seeing and feeling them in person, the photographs just don't do them justice.

Edited January 24, 2010 by gijive

[darrylta]

It's amazing that the Colt grips are so much alike, I'm sure the Remington woodworkers had some type of final pattern jig they used to fine tune them with, remarkable old world craftsmanship.

 

The last photo depicts what I use to distinguish a repro grip. You can readily see the rounding over cut at the top of the palm curve, cuts into the flat band below the mount. It's a sure give away.

Good photos!

Darryl

[gijive]

It's amazing that the Colt grips are so much alike, I'm sure the Remington woodworkers had some type of final pattern jig they used to fine tune them with, remarkable old world craftsmanship.

 

The last photo depicts what I use to distinguish a repro grip. You can readily see the rounding over cut at the top of the palm curve, cuts into the flat band below the mount. It's a sure give away.

Good photos!

Darryl

 

Darryl,

 

I agree with you. I'm thinking they must have had a pattern jig to get the final product so consistent. Plus, as Recon Bob mentioned, trained eyeballs.

Edited January 24, 2010 by gijive

[Norm]

For reference, here are some close-ups of a Richardson reproduction for comparision...

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1629.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1626.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1627.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1635.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1636.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1633.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1641.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1639.jpg

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/DCP_1638.jpg

Edited January 24, 2010 by Norm

[deerslayer]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/4386526/aview/IMG_2151.JPG

 

Here are two 1921 grips I have here. I've taken pictures of others that looked the same, but can't locate them at the moment. To me they are both meaty on the left side of the grip (as you hold them) with the points of the finger grooves a bit off center.

 

GIjive, can you get a picture from this perspective of your grips?

Dan