usmc1488 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Hey guys I know re-weld are a rough subjecr thats why I said legal and display only. I have WWII parts kit with a torch cut receiver (3 pieces), icanI re-weld it so all the parts fit and work ie (bolt moves) but internaly make it non functional like a welded up barrel or trigger? I saw on a forum a 1918 BAR done like this and like the idea. history is still preserved, it looks great on display and can not operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embalmer Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Hey guys I know re-weld are a rough subjecr thats why I said legal and display only. I have WWII parts kit with a torch cut receiver (3 pieces), icanI re-weld it so all the parts fit and work ie (bolt moves) but internaly make it non functional like a welded up barrel or trigger? I saw on a forum a 1918 BAR done like this and like the idea. history is still preserved, it looks great on display and can not operate. Id think plugging the barrel and welding it to the receiver is a start. As for the bolt id ground down the bolt face, weld any firingpin hole, insert in receiver then weld the receiver to trigger frame. Now i dont know if would be kosher with the atf, but is about the only way i can think of to render it unuseable while having moving parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Don(Omega Weapons) has had a PPS43 which is welded up in a maner similiar to what's described above on display at the Crossroads Show for as long as I can remember. I suspect it's been looked at by multiple BATFE agents over this time and,to the best of my knowledge, he's never been called or questioned on it. Perhaps some would care to make a bureau inquiry on this subject? I made an inquiry on another matter weeks ago and still don't have a response. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 It's all about the receiver. If you weld the receiver back together into it's original configuration you have manufactured an unregistered machinegun. Hanging parts on/in it won't change that fact. Sell the receiver parts and buy one of the readily available "dummy" receivers for your replica gun. It's the "smart" thing to do. I am assuming that you are not a licensed manufacturer. Bob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) We talked about this a while back when matching/saw cut pieces of receivers were offered on gunbroker with complete parts sets, so if you do a search you can find more info there. Technically speaking once you weld those pieces back together according to ATF you are breaking the law. Thats why they insist on a torch cut burning away a minimum amount of material so you can't just put them back together. If you want to be able to cock it and snap it, there's not much difference there between your dummy and a working/shooting gun. If you ask ATF I guarantee they will say no - see the thread I refer to above. Now, you could certainly weld up the bolt face, the barrel, etc. and "get away" with it. But who knows for how long? ATF would not approve of what you are doing as a way to deactivate a live machine gun. I personally would not want something like this hanging over my head. As far as the Omega display gun goes, if he has a letter from ATF approving the deactivation, ok. I'll be he doesn't. If people could weld up machine guns into cock/snap "de-acts" (thats what they call this in England where its legal) they'd have done so long ago and sold zillions of them. So caveat emptor... Bob Edited January 28, 2011 by reconbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) It's all about the receiver. If you weld the receiver back together into it's original configuration you have manufactured an unregistered machinegun. Hanging parts on/in it won't change that fact. Sell the receiver parts and buy one of the readily available "dummy" receivers for your replica gun. It's the "smart" thing to do. I am assuming that you are not a licensed manufacturer. Bob D NO I am not a manufacture by any means, I dont want to get a 80% receiver because the weapon looses all of its history. Just think, unless the receiver has been in a hot solevent tank it still has finger prints, dirt, grime, grease, sweat, and tears on it from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. It'd be a shame to loose all of that. Its neat to hold it and imagine where it was, Chosin, Hue City, Germany....80% receivers just dont do it. PS Bob thank you, by the letter of the law you are 100% correct, thats why Im trying to figure out away to deam the reciever unoperable but together. Im thinking a spiked, shot out barrel welded to the receiver would do with the firing pin or hole welded in. Edited January 28, 2011 by usmc1488 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnshooter Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) As far as getting a written response, I spoke to a BATFE examiner who deals in these areas, and he told me any letter of inquiry is going to take at a minimum, longer than a form 4 for a response. He is a real gun guy, recently transferred from another part of the branch, and asked me not to quote him by name on this, as he is not authorized to speak publicly for the department on this issue. He also said that it is a minimum of 4 to 6 weeks after the form 4 check is cashed before the paperwork gets to anyone's desk, due to the overwhelming number of transfers in process, relative to the number of examiners. (by Real Gun Guy, I mean someone who actually knows and enjoys guns and shooting, as well as being helpful and knowledgeable in dealing with my questions). Edited January 28, 2011 by mnshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Examiners do not deal with this type of stuff - Its not their job. The people that deal with questions like this are the Firearms Technology Branch. They are the ones that make the rules - not examiners whose province is processing transfers. I have often written FTB and get written answers to my questions in 2-4 weeks. So the question you ask here, send it to FTB: John R. Spencer Chief, Firearms Technology Branch Bureau of ATFE 244 Needy Rd. Martinsburg WV 25405 If you take the trouble to do this you will get it from the top, from the people that count. Over all my years in the business I have encountered many windbags and gun show "experts" who claim to know it all and when pressed, none (yes, zero - not even one) of them had anything in writing from ATF. It always turned out they knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy, etc. So send the letter, get it from the top, and let us know what the guy says! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Examiners do not deal with this type of stuff - Its not their job. The people that deal with questions like this are the Firearms Technology Branch. They are the ones that make the rules - not examiners whose province is processing transfers. I have often written FTB and get written answers to my questions in 2-4 weeks. So the question you ask here, send it to FTB: John R. Spencer Chief, Firearms Technology Branch Bureau of ATFE 244 Needy Rd. Martinsburg WV 25405 If you take the trouble to do this you will get it from the top, from the people that count. Over all my years in the business I have encountered many windbags and gun show "experts" who claim to know it all and when pressed, none (yes, zero - not even one) of them had anything in writing from ATF. It always turned out they knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy, etc. So send the letter, get it from the top, and let us know what the guy says! Bob Bob, Good info, Ill write and let you know the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnshooter Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Examiners do not deal with this type of stuff - Its not their job. The people that deal with questions like this are the Firearms Technology Branch. They are the ones that make the rules - not examiners whose province is processing transfers. I have often written FTB and get written answers to my questions in 2-4 weeks. So the question you ask here, send it to FTB: John R. Spencer Chief, Firearms Technology Branch Bureau of ATFE 244 Needy Rd. Martinsburg WV 25405 If you take the trouble to do this you will get it from the top, from the people that count. Over all my years in the business I have encountered many windbags and gun show "experts" who claim to know it all and when pressed, none (yes, zero - not even one) of them had anything in writing from ATF. It always turned out they knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy, etc. So send the letter, get it from the top, and let us know what the guy says! Bob I chose to use the term examiner as a generic discription of anyone who examines any type of documents, including inquiries, and to respect the request of not identifying the person I spoke with. I can say that he was talking about precisely the type of inquiry request you have described, and I hope yours is the correct depiction of the time required for a reply. You could not be more correct concerning the need to have their answer in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 usmc1488, Your question comes up with some regularity on the Board. The safe answer is you are playing with fire. When you weld machine gun receiver parts back together for whatever reason or purpose, it can cause problems. Or not. Therein lies the problem. You really don't know what will happen in the future. What I can tell you is no matter how honorable your intentions not to do anything illegal, it will not make a bit of difference if someone from ATF or proper State authority believe you have crossed the line (and only they know where this very subjective line is located). All your good intentions are called jury questions. If it ever reaches that level, you will be sick of guns - period. However, I did note with interest several years ago when a very well-known Thompson researcher, author and Board member put together 2 torch cut Colt Thompsons. All I have seen are pictures. The one Thompson I post pictures of below is NO 176. Careful examination reveals receiver parts are missing but it is tacked together to allow a display. I believe (but have not seen) that some type of aluminum siding was used inside the receiver to hold the pieces together. No, you will not be able to snap the bolt. NO 176 may actually be in sections only held together by the stand. Perhaps, some members on this Board have seen these guns and will comment. I copied the pictures from the owner's web page. The owner's name is Gordon Herigstad, author of, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. I feel comfortable that what Gordon has done with the remnants of NO 176 is well within the bounds of all laws, State and Federal. If you must use original receiver parts for your display, keep the touch cuts intact and omit part of the receiver. And don't take legal advice off the Internet, especially from me! I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 usmc1488, You're walking VERY close to the line here. I worry for you. You've gotten advice from two of the best that MachineGunBoards.com has. (Reconbob & TD) Tread carefully my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 The owner's name is Gordon Herigstad, author of, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. I feel comfortable that what Gordon has done with the remnants of NO 176 is well within the bounds of all laws, State and Federal. Gordon has had the particular Thompson on display at the SAR in the past. I doubt if anyone would consider it "readily restorable to firing condition" in it's current state. However; I certainly agree that it's a very fine line we're treading here. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted January 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) The owner's name is Gordon Herigstad, author of, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. I feel comfortable that what Gordon has done with the remnants of NO 176 is well within the bounds of all laws, State and Federal. Gordon has had the particular Thompson on display at the SAR in the past. I doubt if anyone would consider it "readily restorable to firing condition" in it's current state. However; I certainly agree that it's a very fine line we're treading here. Jim Great repplies and great info. Thank you very much gentlemen. As a gun colector with many weapons and hopefuly a career Marine I do not take this stuff lightly. I will contact the appropriate people and inform you gentlemen of the outcome. As till then a peice of our history lies in pieces in a box! These laws are jokes, guys can rebulid 1919's with 3/4 of the original receiver but I cant make a dummy gun..... Edited January 29, 2011 by usmc1488 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 These laws are jokes, guys can rebulid 1919's with 3/4 of the original receiver but I cant make a dummy gun..... It's all in the execution. You could completly rebuild your Thompson into a working semi-auto if you come up with an appropriate design and have it approved by the ATF. That's what has been done with the 1919 rebuilds. There are very specific requirements for these rebuilds so that they could not readily be converted to full auto. The same would apply to a semi auto Thompson. - Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 These laws are jokes, guys can rebulid 1919's with 3/4 of the original receiver but I cant make a dummy gun..... Go ahead and build it anyway you want. If you later find out that what you did was outside of the permissible regulations you will see just how big a joke the penalties for doing so are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 False info on the 1917/1919 type guns. The right side plate IS the reciever. It is riveted to the top and bottom plates and the front trunion. The left side plate is also riveted to these. The semi-auto or dummy right sideplates replace ALL the reciever , the same as the remark above to use a dummy reciever on your build would do. No legal difference , the difference is in your point of view. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sculptor Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I have a question about the "dummy" guns sold by IMA and mg34.com. Their "dummy's" have original receivers welded together. The guns they make have all of the original markings. The receivers are welded solid and do not function in any way and have no internal parts. The Bren's cocking handle does go back and forth. These guns are approved by the ATF. Why can't a Thompson be put together in the same manner? Again, just a question. Dick Edited January 31, 2011 by Sculptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I have a question about the "dummy" guns sold by IMA and mg34.com. Their "dummy's" have original receivers welded together. The guns they make have all of the original markings. The receivers are welded solid and do not function in any way and have no internal parts. The Bren's cocking handle does go back and forth. These guns are approved by the ATF. Why can't a Thompson be put together in the same manner? Again, just a question. Dick You answered your own question. As pointed out above, submit your intentions to ATF and get specific approval before you begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) The difference is the end product. In one the reciever pieces are destroyed then turned into a solid block unable to take a bolt or other internals. In the other , the pieces are welded and will take a bolt and other internals. One's a good to go , the other's a go to jail. Chris Edited February 2, 2011 by emmagee1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anticus Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 What about building it as a legal reweld SBR semi auto ? Several members have done so following ATF guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 What about building it as a legal reweld SBR semi auto ? Several members have done so following ATF guidelines. If you could point me in the direction of a "how to" on how this is perofrmed with an original cut receiver Id be forever indebted. I was under the assumption that a semi based on an old Full Auto receive and open bolt parts was impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 These laws are jokes, guys can rebulid 1919's with 3/4 of the original receiver but I cant make a dummy gun..... Go ahead and build it anyway you want. If you later find out that what you did was outside of the permissible regulations you will see just how big a joke the penalties for doing so are. I do not wish to go down that route!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 These laws are jokes, guys can rebulid 1919's with 3/4 of the original receiver but I cant make a dummy gun..... Go ahead and build it anyway you want. If you later find out that what you did was outside of the permissible regulations you will see just how big a joke the penalties for doing so are. I do not wish to go down that route!!!!! Im sorry judging by some kind replies I received I didnt explain myslef clear enough. Id love to build a closed bolt semi from my open bolt and torched cut parts kit. Does anyone have a link or blue prints showing how to do this. I do not like the Autoordnance design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1488 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) PS I appreciate the kind and patience that you gentlemen exhibit when it is obvious that I am ignorant on the subject. Nice forum. Edited February 1, 2011 by usmc1488 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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