1921 sealed bid 5/21/2014

[Guest title ii]

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=24074&query=retrieval

 

"The Steele County Sheriff’s Office has obtained permission from the National Firearms Act Branch to sell a Thompson machine gun." Is this a transferable gun being offered for sale? Not sure the logic behind this statement or what it actually means? Why would a SO need "permission" to sell a Thompson? Was this gun owned given to the county by the feds back in the day perhaps?

 

"The highest bidder must be a class III FFL dealer and be in good standing with the ATF&E." Is this customary practice? Would think much more money could be had if the pool of buyers was not exclusive to FFL/SOT's. Not sure this move will get the county the most money which I am sure is what its board of county commissioners is really after.

[jim c 351]

title ii,

Here's my guess,

Most police are totally clueless when it comes to MG's. They wouldn't know the difference between a form 1, form 5, or form 10.

So the sheriff didn't know whether the gun could be sold outside of law enforcement circles. Now he knows.

Next the commissioners probably felt it would be terrible if the gun fell into the wrong hands (read, someone like you or me) so they insisted it be sold to a dealer.

It probably comes down to ignorant people covering their butt.

All MG collectors probably know a dealer who would bid in their behalf for a few bucks.

 

Jim C

[Z3BigDaddy]

That is way to much speculation for me to swallow. They most likely want to avoid any problems dealing with Joe/Jane Q Public who thinks they understand the rules. Any serious buyer will understand the rules, and most likely has a class III dealer in his/her pocket already. Serious money will find a way to purchase this.

 

BTW It is not always about maximizing profit. I will pay more $$ to avoid hassle and I will also take less $$ to avoid hassle. Normally I bring anything big I sell that is Thompson related here first at a reduced rate because I know people here will be hassle free. First time I didn't do it I got screwed by a dealer, no names as I don't want to hurt David Spiwaks feelings.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Z3BigDaddy

[OCM]

Big concern with these police guns, the 28Ns, the internals may not be Colt anymore. S actuator, S bolt etc. Not uncommon at all, and they innocently don't know. Buyer should, or not be a player.

 

OCM

Edited May 4, 2014 by OCM

[buzz]

It's probably going only to a dealer so the sheriff doesn't have to mess around with 5000 goobers who have no clue.

 

If you ever worked any kind of service job, you know that 1% of the public is poisonously stupid.

 

"I won the Thompson, can I put that on layaway?"

 

No doubt that some of the dealers will be bidding for a customer, dealers are probably very happy to help out collectors who can afford $30,000 guns.

Edited May 5, 2014 by buzz

[jim c 351]

Back in the 90's when I owned a gun shop, the local police, sheriff, and insurance companies, would only allow FFL dealers to bid on firearms.

This policy may differ in other parts of the country.

Jim C

[nate129]

Hello, new member here (and WH M1 owner). I work for the county adjacent to Steele and have been helping Sheriff Thiele with getting the word out (also did the add on bower's website). I suggested the weapon could go direct to someone in state, C&R out of state, etc but his board requires any weapons be sold to a FFL in good standing (as is the case in my county). Its OK to trade for items per board, but any sale must be in auction form.

 

I would like to see the weapon stay with the department since records seem to show it has been owned by them since the 1920s, but the costs of doing business keeps going up, tax income does not increase or more often decreases. When Sheriff Thiele found what the gun was worth in 2012 he decided to sell and buy new squads. But he could not find any NFA paperwork. After a long drawn out process with the ATF, they acknowledged they had no record either - but forunetely they committed to allowing it to go officially in the registry on a form of his choosing. The examiner has stated in writing that they will complete the proper transfer form for the winner of the sealed bid process.

 

Some of the older road guys remember drum mags being present for this into the 90s, but they can not be located (apparently misplaced in a move from old building to new in the 1990s). There are 4 20 round mags with it now, patent dated, in excellent shape.

 

Also one perfect 18 round shot shell magazine, but that will be sold in a seperate auction probably on gunbroker.

 

Sheriff Thiele called me a few days back and said a Thompson "expert" called and asked him to break the gun down to look for a few minor details. One was a small anchor stamp on the plate the stock attaches to (this was present), horizontal indentation on barrel/receiver match up pefectly, and a nickel piece on the bolt assembly is present. And all parts match. So apparently this is a rare piece (I have alot to learn about these obviously). Sheriff Theile has a document showing the gun was made between 11/14/21 and 11/19/21 and was sold direct to Steele County. But I wonder if that could be possible since the weapon was re-worked somewhere around 1928?

 

If this is accurate, Chicago gangs do have a documented history in that part of MN so the gun could have a very interesting history.

 

The bluing looks great, this will be a nice addition to someone's collection.

Edited May 9, 2014 by nate129

[Z3BigDaddy]

Wait one Sacramento! You are saying that there is no paperwork at this time but "they committed to allowing it to go officially into the registry on the form of his choosing"? I am a bit skeptical that can even be done. So ATF is willing to break the law in respect to The Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986? I can see a form 10 but don't know about a form 4.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Z3BigDaddy

[buzz]

 

 

There are probably lots of holes and errors in the NFA registry that the ATF has to adjust or clean up from time to time, I would not be critical of that since it serves the interests of collectors.

 

Also, consider that ATF does not make laws, they are tasked with enforcing laws made by congress.

Edited May 12, 2014 by buzz

[nate129]

This case may be unique in that paperwork was located at the office, just not the registration. And retired old timers all remember the gun being owned by the agency back when they started, well before 1968. The NFA letter recognizes that the weapon was registered at some point, but they could not locate the paperwork in their archives. I suppose with weapons being registered around the GCA in 1934, and with all the office moves over the years, it would not be impossible for NFA to make a mistake.

[TD.]

nate129,

Welcome to the Board. I too hope NO 7913 finds a good home. While I respect your wish for it to stay with a law enforcement organization, this makes NO 7913 just one sheriff away from destruction. When it enters the collector community it will be preserved for years to come. All it takes now is one future sheriff to decide it should be destroyed because it is no longer needed and machine guns should not be allowed in civilian hands. Then it would be gone forever. Regarding the registration of machine guns, this is a very technical process that started under the Internal Revenue laws. Unless you know exactly what happened between the sheriff and ATF and what documentation ATF used to register this Thompson on a Form 5, I would not make statements in this area. Suffice to say, whatever transpired provided ATF enough documentation to allow NO 7913 to be sold on the civilian market. And that is a great thing!

 

I agree NO 7913 was made in 1921. However, given the serial number, I would guess it was sold to the Sheriff's department after 1928 when the NAVY model was introduced by Auto-Ordnance Corporation.

 

Again, thanks for sharing the past history of this fine Thompson.

[gijive]

The gun has a second style compensator, which wasn't introduced until after 1932, so my guess is the gun was purchased after that. I am going to guess around 1933/1934. I think there is a little confusion on the seller's part about the registration. If it wasn't registered and then recently registered on a Form 10, then it can only go to a dealer or other law enforcement agency. I highly doubt that BATF decided that the winning dealer could register it on the registration form of his choice. If it is on an original Form 1, then after a dealer gets it and resells it to a private individual, another dealer or law enforcement agency it would go on a Form 3,4 or 5. I believe this is where the confusion lies.

Edited May 9, 2014 by gijive

[philasteen]

Externally it looks like a nice piece. I expect it will go for serious money.

[leswad]

How would the transfer process work on the deal? Would it go from 4 to the dealer, the form 4 to the actual buyer? Would this be a year and a half wait?

[DLansky]

form 5 from the PD to the dealer and form 4 from the dealer to the eventual buyer.

[nate129]

I can verify that the Thompson has not been or will be on a form 10.

[Z3BigDaddy]

And why would it be on a form 1? Correct me if I am just not understanding this. As of right now it is not on any form correct? Or any form that they can find. And just because it has been with the dept. for so long someone is assuming at some point it was registered? So therefor the are going to allow an unregistered gun on to the registry post 1986 just because. I hope it works that way. It would set a precedent for future cases of this nature fer sure.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Z3BigDaddy

[nate129]

The sheriff has a thick folder on the gun so I am not sure exactly what he does or does not have. All he told me is the ATF could not find the registration form on file but committed to helping prepare the transfer to a dealer, and that the weapon could be legally sold. Another gun in county possession was found on a form 10 and the NFA branch wrote that weapon could not be sold.

 

If any potential bidders have questions about the paperwork feel free to call Sheriff Thiele.

 

Havnt bringback WWII / Korea / Vietnam guns been added to the registry on bringback papers alone?

[mnshooter]

I examined 7913 today.

I may have been the first person to get a look at the interior since the last time the gun was fired; a time that could not be verified by anyone present. I am assuming this because the bolt nose still had blackened powder residue on it. I wiped this clean, to insure there was no corrosion under it.

Added note: (The residue is still visible in the first posted photo -showing the entire disassembled gun, and the photo of the grip frame being held upright).

Everything inside is correct Colt, with the riveted two piece actuator.

The bottom of the bolt and top surface of the grip frame show only the slightest signs of wear from firing.

The butt stock has the anchor and correct hardware. No oil can in the stock. Even the stock slide and the engagement surface of the grip frame show almost no visible wear in the finish. The oiler felts also looked in excellent shape. The butt plate does have quite a few very tiny marks from being stored in a rack.

The outside bluing on the receiver flats has a lot of fine specs, as seen in the ad. But in person, it looks a whole lot better to me than I would have thought from only the ad. If it did not have all these freckles in the receiver blue, it could be one of the best out there. Back up five feet and to my eyes it almost looked like new. Your eyes may be different.

No noticeable dings in the wood, no signs of ever being refinished; excellent inletting fit around the stock slide and rear grip to frame.

The really good news: The department representative was very interested in the C&R status of the gun, and recognized that this will allow more bidders. They stated again that following the sale, the form will be completed by BATFE as previously described. I don't know any more about this, but even if it meant a form 3 to a dealer, and then a form 4 to a C&R purchaser, this seemed to indicate they are welcoming C&R bidders.

I could only take some quick hand held photos in available light.

Got a hunch it's too rich for my blood, but hope someone here gets it.

Edited May 27, 2014 by mnshooter

[Z3BigDaddy]

Nope, not after 1986...

The sheriff has a thick folder on the gun so I am not sure exactly what he does or does not have. All he told me is the ATF could not find the registration form on file but committed to helping prepare the transfer to a dealer, and that the weapon could be legally sold. Another gun in county possession was found on a form 10 and the NFA branch wrote that weapon could not be sold.

 

If any potential bidders have questions about the paperwork feel free to call Sheriff Thiele.

 

Havnt bringback WWII / Korea / Vietnam guns been added to the registry on bringback papers alone?

[Dolphinvet]

I'm really finding this confusing. How could the ATF acknowledge that the gun was registered but could not find the paperwork? The fact that they said the gun was registered in itself indicates that some kind of paperwork exists. If it doesn't, then they are opening a whole big can of worms, in more ways then one. It would indicate to me, that they are allowing NEW registrations of existing guns, on a case by case basis. My gun was purchased by a dealer who worked for the fire department in Seattle that had the dealers license, just to sell the gun for the department. Seattle was the original buyer of my '21AC. I don't have the original registration paperwork, but I suspect I could do a FOIA search on it. But, I really don't know if this gun was ever properly registered prior to the sale to the dealer and then to me. Now, if this gun was not "properly" registered, but ATF is allowing the transfer to a dealer, then a private sale, would it not be possible that they would allow other original Thompsons owned by departments to sell them as well? I know of another '21 that a department owns, but the cops I have talked to say they think it's not registered with ATF.

[Kilroy]

My gun was purchased by a dealer who worked for the fire department in Seattle that had the dealers license, just to sell the gun for the department.

I'm a fireman and my department certainly doesn't have a Thompson or any other bullet hoses... Should I put in a request?

[Dolphinvet]

 

My gun was purchased by a dealer who worked for the fire department in Seattle that had the dealers license, just to sell the gun for the department.

I'm a fireman and my department certainly doesn't have a Thompson or any other bullet hoses... Should I put in a request?

Sean Galt was the dealer I purchased the gun through, he works for the Fire Department in Seattle, but the gun was a Seattle PD gun. I bought it last year for 28.5k. All Colt internals, not molested. I just have to wonder how this other transfer is occurring. It doesn't make sense to me. Either the gun is registered with ATF or it isn't. And paperwork should exist if they say it's registered. The only thing I can figure is that the Sheriff's department has paperwork, showed it to ATF, and ATF can't locate their copy. Otherwise, it's a whole new ball game.

[buzz]

Why does everyone keep insisting that ATF is doing something unusual with the transfer of this gun?

 

We have hardly any information at all on it.

 

I would be willing to bet that ATF is not doing anything improper by transferring the gun.

 

I work with federal and state employees all the time, they do not care about your problems or desires, they don't do favors, they follow the rules.

Edited May 15, 2014 by buzz

[buzz]

Certain machine guns with war trophy paperwork have been added to the registry recently (post 86) since the trophy papers are considered by ATF to be government permission to own the item.

 

/

/

Nope, not after 1986...

The sheriff has a thick folder on the gun so I am not sure exactly what he does or does not have. All he told me is the ATF could not find the registration form on file but committed to helping prepare the transfer to a dealer, and that the weapon could be legally sold. Another gun in county possession was found on a form 10 and the NFA branch wrote that weapon could not be sold.

 

If any potential bidders have questions about the paperwork feel free to call Sheriff Thiele.

 

Havnt bringback WWII / Korea / Vietnam guns been added to the registry on bringback papers alone?

 

 

Edited May 15, 2014 by buzz