Will Existing Form 4's Be Faster Now?

[huggytree]

werent they going to hire 2x more staff now to make transfers quicker

 

can i assume the 5 month wait for form 4 may shrink down to 2.5 months?

 

i have 6 items on form 4 right now.....curious if ill see them sooner than expected

 

opinions?

 

 

[Sandman1957]

Doubt it,in the near term. Many folks were trying to beat the new deadline to avoid fingerprints. It all depends on volume, and even BAFTE takes vacation in the summer. Despite what most think, they are human too...

[The Lone Ranger]

The line rarely moves fast by getting longer. When I posted they were 82k in the hole, it wasn't just internet chatter. That was 2 weeks ago. It will get worse, too.

[emmagee1917]

Yep , and with the LE approval sig . going away , The flood of people who can now buy will clog the system up for months .

Been trying to get my forms in before the 13th , but one suppressor has not made it in yet .

Chris

[huggytree]

with the flood of people can i expect my S1928 to be worth $50,000 in a few more days?

 

 

 

more people getting into the hobby now doesnt effect my existing form 4's from 2-4 months ago....ive got 6 in that period of time....i should be at the front of the line and if they double the staff it should speed me up.....last one was 5 1/2 months....

Edited July 13, 2016 by huggytree

[DZelenka]

Silencer shop sent in 10,000 forms today that they had accumulated since Friday.

[huggytree]

curious when these people are being hired?

 

did they just hire 1,000 people today?

 

or is this a long term thing and they will slowly double their staff?

 

very cool on the 10,000 silencers......shows how the CLEO sign off has been an issue for some

 

Funny how the Milwaukee top cop (Sheriff David Clark- who is on Fox News all the time and national fame/pro gun) wont sign off on FA

[Got Uzi]

I dropped off the Form 4 for my Mac 10 9mm at my Post Office and had the lady post mark it in front of me to make sure it was dated as such. When I talked to ATF on Monday, they said the wait time will be 6 months. They said as long as it was post marked the 12th it would be ok but if it wasn't then new paperwork would have to be done for the gun. Also, the rumor that if you have had a transfer within the past 2 years, your Form 1 or Form 4 would be automatically rubber stamped is just that. Its a rumor and was told such Monday. IF someone else has proof that this is not the case, then by all means speak up.

 

Its one of the big turn offs to the NFA game-the whole hurry up and wait. In all honesty if it wasn't for suppressors and SBR's the wait times would be 2-3 months tops.

[timkel]

Only the govies would take 6mo to do what should only take 5 days max. I believe the long wait is by design.

[RoscoeTurner]

Only the govies would take 6mo to do what should only take 5 days max. I believe the long wait is by design.

 

 

Usually the opinion of those that have no clue what is involved.

[timkel]

 

Only the govies would take 6mo to do what should only take 5 days max. I believe the long wait is by design.

Usually the opinion of those that have no clue what is involved.

Yea, and denile is not just a river in Egypt.

[The Lone Ranger]

If your conspiracy exists, be happy. It's having the exact opposite of its intended effect. If you can articulate the 5 day transfer, please do. You will be a hero to thousands. It's tough to do for most internet posters though as I have found over the years they have never done the work, used the database or even know much of the regulations beyond being a typical collector. If you can propose a realistic premise it is 100% assured of getting to people who can implement it, or if the conspiracy is real, to the gun lobby for appropriate propaganda/fundraising use.

[timkel]

It's not rocket science. It's a database. When you hear "it can't be done any faster", you are either at the DMV, VA or some other Govt agency. Or "It's complicated, you wouldn't understand", yea, you're talking to a govie. Turn it over to a private contractor and watch how they manage a database.

[emmagee1917]

I agree . If they can do a gunstore background check in a few minutes , why not these ?

Why not issue ID cards or numbers for frequent buyers ?

It should not take near the time it does .

Chris

[huggytree]

Hey just got all 6 of my form 4 stamps in today & one only took a month!!!!...guess they really increased the speed with double the work force

 

............just kidding

[The Lone Ranger]

Background checks are currently a 10 day turnaround. So - no suggestions for improvement? Not a bad thing, that just means you are in the same boat as 99% of internet critics - regardless of employer. You won't catch me saying nothing can be done better - just that if you can't support your 5 day claim maybe try to learn more about the process then take to the net. You'll come out looking much more informed.

 

 

 

These guys are clearly part of the conspiracy claiming 2 million in transfer taxes for one shipment:

 

https://www.facebook.com/SilencerShop/photos/a.443053825715404.100750.232190883468367/1357557154265062/?type=3&theater

 

Remember - it's not volume - it's a trick.

[huggytree]

im just glad im in line before all of them.....they may back things up 6 months + on top of the normal 5 months

 

its just amazing

 

good news for american jobs!!!

[timkel]

Background checks are currently a 10 day turnaround. So - no suggestions for improvement? Not a bad thing, that just means you are in the same boat as 99% of internet critics - regardless of employer. You won't catch me saying nothing can be done better - just that if you can't support your 5 day claim maybe try to learn more about the process then take to the net. You'll come out looking much more informed.

 

 

 

These guys are clearly part of the conspiracy claiming 2 million in transfer taxes for one shipment:

 

https://www.facebook.com/SilencerShop/photos/a.443053825715404.100750.232190883468367/1357557154265062/?type=3&theater

 

Remember - it's not volume - it's a trick.

lol....there it is..."It can't be done"..."I don't understand the process"..."part of the conspiracy"...

If the Govies can't do it in

[RoscoeTurner]

From what you read on the internet there must be a lot of expertise in people who only submit a tiny number of transfers per year.

[The Lone Ranger]

If you read the quoted post, I said the opposite of "It can't be done faster". The office you are speculating about has increased processing volume substantially since 2010 both collectively and per employee so apparently there is room for improvement if someone has something realistic and workable to offer.

 

You still have not presented any suggestions other than firing every employee there which being a gumby, you know is not even possible and shown you don't really have anything. A little better than a decade ago I thought I had answers like you do. Trick is once you leave the internet and learn what you don't know it's not nearly as easy. Honest people get humbled, the arrogant get angry, but life goes on basically unchanged.

 

I regret ribbing you about the conspiracy (sort of), as it was unprofessional but you did say me keeping a firearm longer and making you wait to get it was by design. Long time internet claim often repeated, yet to be founded. Secrets are hard to keep if humans are involved and the chances of 70-100 people keeping a lid on that one are nil. it's a difficult target to resist.

 

Maybe I can work on my wisely personality and you can improve your knowledge of the industry? There is an import/export conference coming in DC (formerly manufacturing and imports which was IMO a bit more interesting) - kind of dry for a collector, but you will have access to a lot of knowledgeable people from the Empire as well as industry groups and companies. A person who seeks some wisdom can do well there. SHOT is another one, you just need to get into the industry events and no promises on how difficult or easy that may be.

 

http://nssf.org/GovRel/ImportExportConference/

http://nssf.org/GovRel/ImportExportConference/

[johnsonlmg41]

Well for one suggestion they could use NICS? Why not, these are no different than any other firearm in reality. 9.5 day savings there down to 3-5 minutes. They could eliminate research on suppressors, sbr, sbs etc since if you can make them vs. transfer what is there really to research and a stamp is really the thing necessary for those? Anything else is really just a time waster. As long as the number on the gun matches the form who really cares what other info is on there and in the end the owner should be smart enough to check it before sending the form and smart enough to file a correction if it's not. In the end proof of tax payment via the stamp is all that really matters. Reality dictates that the above could all be done at a gun store counter like a duck stamp.

 

Machineguns need some work I'll agree, but those are a very small fragment of transfers.

 

Fact is I know of people already handing stuff over once payment of the tax is confirmed by cancelled check much like any other transaction with the gov. Imagine waiting for a car until the title is sent back or a house until the title is recorded? Hey are we a victim group? I'm filing a grievance!

[timkel]

Well for one suggestion they could use NICS? Why not, these are no different than any other firearm in reality. 9.5 day savings there down to 3-5 minutes. They could eliminate research on suppressors, sbr, sbs etc since if you can make them vs. transfer what is there really to research and a stamp is really the thing necessary for those? Anything else is really just a time waster. As long as the number on the gun matches the form who really cares what other info is on there and in the end the owner should be smart enough to check it before sending the form and smart enough to file a correction if it's not. In the end proof of tax payment via the stamp is all that really matters. Reality dictates that the above could all be done at a gun store counter like a duck stamp.

 

Machineguns need some work I'll agree, but those are a very small fragment of transfers.

 

Fact is I know of people already handing stuff over once payment of the tax is confirmed by cancelled check much like any other transaction with the gov. Imagine waiting for a car until the title is sent back or a house until the title is recorded? Hey are we a victim group? I'm filing a grievance!

You mention some great ideas. If the ATF was interested in reducing transfer times, they could, easily.

[The Lone Ranger]

I'd offer to help you guys petitioning ATF for a regulation change to use NICS, but apparently someone already thought of it - 479.86 and it's being done. Once again - the background checks are not holding anything up. As you may (not) know, NICS dedicates 9 examiners to handle all background checks for the FFLC, FELC, and NFA. This is not mandated on the FBI, but is done as a courtesy service and while the dealers are obligated to go along with their determination, ATF is not and holds the final responsibility for whether to transfer or not - hence some applicants getting letters to see if they can offer any further information - another kick in the pants to our 5 day goal you may not have accounted for. An auto proceed (a query which hits on no record at all) is easy - the computer takes care of it instantly. Statistically, about 28% of all firearm checks require human intervention and research which is not "Instant" as the name implies and why you see the three business day delay for research in 478.102. Even if you could get 100% one day turnaround on backgrounds (not possible) you still have the bottleneck of 5000 forms per day coming in and giving you the months of delay. For more learning material on NICS operations, you might consider attending NICS Retailer Day. It's held at CJIS (Clarksburg, WV) usually annually in August, but cancelled this year due to deployment and undivided attention to their new system, conveniently known as "New NICS".

 

 

Anything else? How about pre-screening applications so only the perfect examples even get into the pipeline and at least give a chance of achieving that rubber stamp conveyor belt environment you guys are describing? The 60-70% who get it right the first time can move through much faster while the others can fix first then get in line? Bear in mind, like with background checks the minority with problems will take the majority of time and drain your staffing. You still need explanations for what's wrong and debate definitions with people who want to register their GCA-only item as NFA, register an accessory, bounce a check, plus researching for people trying to play games with post-86 acquisitions, transfer unregistered guns using old registration data of legitimate ones, etc. And that's assuming no gov employee ever makes an error. No hill for a climber, though.

 

Still waiting for the easy part ...

[dalbert]

Still waiting for the easy part ...

 

The Lone Ranger,

 

With all due respect, and I really do mean that...I sincerely respect your opinion on this, and the incredibly deep NFA knowledge that you bring to the board..However, in my opinion, the easy part would be to bid a contract to 3rd party providers. The time could almost certainly be cut in half, at the very minimum, and probably better than that. Maybe not 5 days, but who knows...

 

The power of the dollar in an open bid situation should not be underestimated, especially versus a government department that has been in place for 82 years. I manage in such an environment, and the improvements we've made over the previous in-house operation are exceptional. I say that, and I was a manager in the previous in-house operation, and continuous improvement was a part of our former performance plans. As a 3rd party, we are always motivated by the prospect of continued employment through contract extensions, and through bottom line focus that affects us all. Our daily work is performed while knowing that another company would love to have our contract.

 

All this being said, I don't see it happening at NFA Branch, and I hope that wait times will reduce through whatever improvements are made in the current operation, whether they be headcount based, or through process improvements. They are unlikely to change to a 3rd party provider.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[johnsonlmg41]

Generally we've many times assessed the idea of hiring additional staff....to no avail really. And the rush of incoming forms before the change... who could have predicted that.....everyone here, but hey never mind additional backlog is no problem. Privatizing... Blasphemy! Performance goals.....outrageous. Overtime or per form piece work......insanity. So how about allocating some compliance field personnel who often interview guys that do 10 transfers a year to leave them alone for a year and help another branch catch up? 7 months to process effectively a single page is sort of a crisis?

 

Perhaps allocate work on suppressors, SBR's, SBS to dealers who do the leg work and hand out the stamps. They check ID, run NICS, cancel the stamp with the serial # and mail it in or scan it with the cancelled stamp and email it (you know like efile). Most of them are capable of doing fingerprints (I've done my own with no problems) if necessary. I'm betting for the ease of selling a suppressor nearly point of purchase they'd be all in? Or maybe a few extra bucks added to a transfer fee? But no sitting on endless piles of inventory for months. Are FFL's not effectively already "agents" of the ATF? Since we're sort of mandating 4473's at time of pick up anyhow, why not let the FFL make the call and finish the form? The form now would be 1 page since the questions on the back are redundant. For instate person to person, I'd mandate those to through a dealer for the simple stuff, not machineguns.

 

Back to the hill since I work on piecework and only get paid for work done (well when the customers actually mail the check that is). LR I also respect your input to the discussion and I guess while I've been dealing with it for a long time and it no longer really frustrates me personally, I hear it from new guys who instantly lose interest due to the wait times. I will admit to annoyance in the early 2000's when times spiked to 90 days and guys were pissed, so I guess what probably annoys me more is we've been here so many times before over now decades with no change or solutions? Those who forget the past.....

 

 

PS NFA branch kiosks at major gun shows....ATF is there anyhow, why not sell some stamps and collect some forms. SAR show point of purchase stamps and transfers, like the DMV, but friendlier. Note they've been outsourced in many states for a reason. The irony while I was typing the post I got an email form eforms that my form has been submitted....after 3 weeks. It really should have been approved in that timeframe.

Edited July 20, 2016 by johnsonlmg41