Presentation M1A1 ?

[Rob442]

Hi everyone 

I am new to this forum and this is my first posting. I thought I'd share some pics of my M1A1 that I picked up in the UK a few years ago. The seller had no information about the guns history but I decided to take a chance on it as the engraving appeared to be very old and the font looked the same or very similar to the original Thompson markings. Any information would be much appreciated. 

 

[rpbcps]

Rob442,

Welcome to the forum, and thankyou for posting the pictures of your M1A1.

I am not in a position to offer you any information on the markings. This is the first time, apart from presentation Thompson's that were purpose built as presentation guns, that I have seen markings like this on a wartime Thompson.

I look forward to other members, who may have more knowledge on the subject, to provide more information on the subject.

Richard

[Countryboy77]

My That is the Most INTERESTING Thompson I have seen in a looking time.I believe you have somthing rare there!

[Rob442]

6 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Rob442,

Welcome to the forum, and thankyou for posting the pictures of your M1A1.

I am not in a position to offer you any information on the markings. This is the first time, apart from presentation Thompson's that were purpose built as presentation guns, that I have seen markings like this on a wartime Thompson.

I look forward to other members, who may have more knowledge on the subject, to provide more information on the subject.

Richard

Thanks Richard.

I've never seen anything like it either and was wary at first as I thought  it may have been a later addition to increase the value but it just felt right! 

The dealer was charging no more than any other M1A1 as he had no provenance for the gun so I thought, why not take a chance.

The way the patina has formed around the engraving in all areas seems to show it was done a long time ago and the font appears to be the same as the rest of the gun. My thoughts are that it either served during that campaign and was sent back to the factory to be engraved by the soldier that used it or it was done as a gift or presentation piece to commemorate D day.

[rpbcps]

"The dealer was charging no more than any other M1A1"

Regardless, in that case you definitely fell onto a bargain. I would have jumped at that opportunity, if I had seen it. 👌

[StrangeRanger]

Pardon my skepticism but AFAIK the Rangers who participated in the Omaha Beach landing were in the independent 2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions not the First Infantry Division.  Some Rangers may have been temporarily attached to it but they were not part of that division.  It seems unlikely that a Ranger would have had his TSMG engraved with the name of a unit to which he did not belong

[Rob442]

4 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

 

I'm no military historian so I really can't comment on that too much. Is it possible that the gun commemorates both the Rangers and the 1st Infantry divisions actions during D day?

The engraving appears to be almost as old as the gun and looks like it may have been done at the factory. I can't see why anyone would have gone to all that trouble many years ago to fake something without it being worthwhile financially. 

 

 

[StrangeRanger]

Most of the 2nd Rangers were assigned to storm Pointe du Hoc to take out artillery covering Utah and Omaha beach and the 5th were to follow on as the second wave. Due to enemy resistance which upset the timetable some of the 2nd and all of the 5th Rangers were diverted to Omaha where only one company from the 2nd had originally been scheduled to land.  These Rangers landed at the extreme right flank of the invasion at Vierville sur Mer in support of the 116th Infantry Regiment. (The opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan.) The 116th Infantry (of the 29th Division) was an untried unit and the addition of veteran troops to that sector is sometimes credited for the breakout from the beach.  However, despite extremely heavy losses the 116th performed well. I could not find any reference to Rangers being assigned to or accidentally combined with the left flank of Omaha where the 16th Infantry (of the 1st Division) landed.

I am willing to be proven wrong but in my admittedly limited search I simply could not find any reference to Rangers interacting with the 1st Division on the beachead.

[Rob442]

29 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

 

Thanks for all the information, very interesting. 

[TSMGguy]

The rangers inscription was engraved, while the other markings were roll marked and done at the factory. The legend is not factory original. That's about all we know.

[signal_4]

On 4/5/2023 at 6:58 PM, Rob442 said:

Hi everyone 

I am new to this forum and this is my first posting. I thought I'd share some pics of my M1A1 that I picked up in the UK a few years ago. The seller had no information about the guns history but I decided to take a chance on it as the engraving appeared to be very old and the font looked the same or very similar to the original Thompson markings. Any information would be much appreciated. 

 

Wow that’s really awesome ! Out of curiosity, since you are in the UK, has that beauty been deactivated or is it live still ?  

[Rob442]

1 hour ago, signal_4 said:

Wow that’s really awesome ! Out of curiosity, since you are in the UK, has that beauty been deactivated or is it live still ?  

Thanks and it is deactivated. 

[signal_4]

3 hours ago, Rob442 said:

Thanks and it is deactivated. 

Man it looks amazing, I love how they leave it all intact on the outside over there and the EU rules on deactivation. Can you have FA over in UK    

Edited April 7, 2023 by signal_4

[TD.]

Rob442,

Welcome to the Thompson forum and thank you for sharing pictures of your M1A1. Presentation M1 or M1A1 Thompsons exist but yours is a first for me. I know very little specific history about the Rangers and the D-Day invasion, but it appears we have some knowledgeable members on the forum. 

Is this M1A1 deac old style or new style? I am thinking, actually guessing, it may have been previously owned by someone in the UK or Europe that was involved with World War II re-enactments and used this M1A1 Thompson as part of their outfit. As a deac, it would easy to leave it with an engraver to have the inscription applied. Perhaps, the previous owner changed hobbies, needed money or decided on another weapon. In any event, you have a nice M1A1 deac. Congratulations.

[Rob442]

45 minutes ago, signal_4 said:

 

Deactivation rules are more strict over here than they used to be but externally,  the guns remain intact. Magazines can be removed and the trigger and selector levers usually still move but the front part of the bolt is now welded into the breech and the rear part no longer locks in the cocked position. 

This is a small price to pay to be able to own these incredible pieces of history relatively intact and licence free.

[Rob442]

10 hours ago, TD. said:

Rob442,

Welcome to the Thompson forum and thank you for sharing pictures of your M1A1. Presentation M1 or M1A1 Thompsons exist but yours is a first for me. I know very little specific history about the Rangers and the D-Day invasion, but it appears we have some knowledgeable members on the forum. 

Is this M1A1 deac old style or new style? I am thinking, actually guessing, it may have been previously owned by someone in the UK or Europe that was involved with World War II re-enactments and used this M1A1 Thompson as part of their outfit. As a deac, it would easy to leave it with an engraver to have the inscription applied. Perhaps, the previous owner changed hobbies, needed money or decided on another weapon. In any event, you have a nice M1A1 deac. Congratulations.

Thanks for the kind words.  The gun is a new style deactivation, the rear part of the bolt moves but doesn't lock back.

My only problem with what you say regarding the engraving being relatively recent is the way the patina has formed around the engraving and not under it. If you look closely at the roll stamped lettering below the rear sight, you can see that the patina has formed around the lettering in exactly the same way.

The font also seems to be almost identical to the original Thompson markings which made me wonder if it had been returned to the factory to have this applied immediately following the war.

All this is speculation of course but I think its highly unlikely that all the patina on the gun occurred recently. I may never find the truth about this gun but I have a gut feeling about it so that's good enough for now.

 

[Got Uzi]

I used to restore and “unrestore” antique gas engines. I could make brand new paint look 75-100 years old. If you know how to do it, you can make a gun finish look the exact same way. Not saying it is, or isn’t in this case, but you buy the item, not the story, unless the story can be verified. 

[TSMGguy]

Again, the original factory markings were roll marked. These are engraved. Very neatly so. 

[Rob442]

2 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

I used to restore and “unrestore” antique gas engines. I could make brand new paint look 75-100 years old. If you know how to do it, you can make a gun finish look the exact same way. Not saying it is, or isn’t in this case, but you buy the item, not the story, unless the story can be verified. 

I get what you're saying but there was no story with this gun and the price was no more than a standard M1A1 so no incentive to go to all that trouble. 

I had never noticed how the patina had formed around the engraving until I took these pics in direct sunlight. I've seen how paint finishes can be made to look old and also many refinished guns but I don't believe that to be the case here. As I say, where's the incentive?

[Bridgeport28A1]

Without solid provenance for the engraving I would consider the engraving a negative when comparing Thompsons in similar condition.

YMMV

[Mike Hammer]

15 hours ago, Bridgeport28A1 said:

Without solid provenance for the engraving I would consider the engraving a negative when comparing Thompsons in similar condition.

YMMV

 

[Nick-England]

What dealer did you buy it from? 

[Rob442]

6 minutes ago, Nick-England said:

 

Hi Nick, It was from Battleflag Militaria.

[Nick-England]

Ok definitely not a seller that would have faked it then, he’s also got a m1a1 Thompson for sale with cuts added to the receiver to take a drum mag so not sure where he picks his guns up from 

[Rob442]

1 hour ago, Nick-England said:

Ok definitely not a seller that would have faked it then, he’s also got a m1a1 Thompson for sale with cuts added to the receiver to take a drum mag so not sure where he picks his guns up from 

I know he purchased from a military museum some time ago so may still do that.

Many years ago I purchased a very nice smooth jacket Russian Maxim from him that had all WW1 parts and no Finnish stamps, quite possibly a WW1 capture.