FMV/Assessment GB Savage M1928A1

[texasguns67]

This is posted on GB. For my education (and others) can folks give opinions on appropriate value, other observations? It sat a couple of weeks on STG @36k so I assume a bit high in price. Thanks!

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/992075691

[Dan K]

Oddly enough, this is now marked sold pending funds on Sturm.

What strikes me as odd if this did sit in grease for years why there is putting on the receiver. Unless it was there before being blued, could be, not sure how important fit/finish was during the war time production. 

[brveagle]

I don't like that font on the receiver. Almost looks restamped or something. 

[TSMGguy]

It looks refinished, but neatly. The frame should have a matching serial number, but this is not shown.

Edited June 12, 2023 by TSMGguy

[TD.]

The pictures indicate to me that it just came out of the bluing tanks. As with all guns, a personal inspection is always best. The frame appears to be Savage but no indication if matching the receiver - very important regarding value. The rest of the parts and pieces look correct. I assume a RUSCO pouch for the U marked Bridgeport L drum - a nice accessory. I find the magazine pouch interesting and would like to see more pictures of that. 

[reconbob]

I don’t know why, but without question the left side of the receiver does not have the original engraving. Look at the right side - the patent numbers and Auto-Ord have thin, clear letters and numbers. This is because they were roll engraved and the shape of the die is a sharp “V” which in turn leaves a V shaped impression.

Now, compare that to the 3 or 4 times wider curved bottom engraving on the left which was done (don’t know when or why) by some type of rotating cutter like a tiny ball endmill. Not even close. An obvious fake job.

The question is why was it necessary to do this since the right side of the receiver is correct? 
 

Also note there is no picture of the fire control markings on the trigger frame. But in the first picture FIRE has the wide, curved endmill look, but in the second picture SAFE looks OK. But we don’t get to see FULL AUTO and SINGLE.

The seller is either a rookie who knows nothing, a scam artist, or simply uneducated or maybe all three. But this gun is worth nowhere near $36K.

My $0.02

Bob

Edited June 12, 2023 by reconbob

[texasguns67]

More pics

[texasguns67]

And a few more. These are what were posted on Sturm.

[reconbob]

    I do not own an original M1928A1, but I grabbed a couple of original de-milled receiver pieces.

You can see at a glance that the engraving is different. Aside from the width and rounded edges of

the engraving, take note of the shape of the letter U in SUBMACHINE GUN. On the two original samples

the bottom of the U is a full half circle. On the Sturm gun the bottom is not a full half circle but flat

and just the corners are rounded.

And while we're at it, take a look at the M. On the originals the middle V in the M only goes

down about 1/2 way to the bottom of the letter. On the Sturm gun the V goes all the way down

to the bottom of the letter. There is no question that the Sturm engraving is not original. The question

is why was it done? Was the receiver or engraving damaged? Some type of reweld? ?

 

Bob

 

Sturm gun 

 

Original #1 

 

Original #2 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by reconbob

[Stormin]

Appreciate the comparison pictures of the Original Receivers, it was my first thought when I looked at the gun was something was off on the engraving…

[texasguns67]

Outstanding help everyone!  I appreciate all taking the time to comment and provide supporting resources 

[reconbob]

Do we know the seller or buyer of this gun? It would be interesting to know the story…

 

Bob

[TennesseeTaylor95]

Not to further muddy the water about the markings on the left side of the receiver, but looking at another Savage produced M1928A1 in that SN range (# 469,333) that was sold by Ruben Mendiola in the past, it looks like it also exhibits the same "full height" M and "flat bottomed" U letters in the receiver markings mentioned in this thompson being discussed. Here is the link to Mr. Mendiola's listing of SN# 469,333 on the website Gun Spot if you want to compare and contrast them to see the differences & similarities.

 https://gunspot.com/listings/archived/839/savage-1928a1-cr-w-drum/ 

I wonder if enough of you guys see what I do to question whether the markings aren't redone on the thompson in question, but maybe that this is just a difference between earlier and later Savage M1928A1 roll marks. Mr. Mendiola also sold Savage M1928A1 SN# 225351 (you can also find photos of that one on Google images) that has the "half height" M and "fully rounded" U letters that reconbob mentions. Maybe it is just a difference in roll dies that got replaced that have just very minor variances. Just food for thought.

Edited June 12, 2023 by TennesseeTaylor95
Autocorrect wanted to change names to Star Wars characters...

[ranger1385]

You guys have eagle eyes.  I learn a lot from your analysis!   I was actually thinking of driving to go inspect it.  

[reconbob]

     Well, that is most interesting and does muddy the water. The wider, flatter letters are much different

than my two samples. BUT, on the Mendiola gun the left side engraving appears very wide, smooth and flat

bottomed and on the Sturm gun it is deeper, not as wide, with (I think) a more noticeable rounded bottom.

Regardless of authentic vs. not-authentic the two markings are not close to being the same. I wonder why the

left side engraving is so much wider than the right side engraving? And looking again at the Sturm look how wide

and deep all the letters are, except for the T's - especially the second T in AUTOMATIC which compared to the

other letters is barely there. As if the T's were pressed/engraved and everything else was ball endmill machined.

I don't get it. Is this a serial number thing? Before a certain number thin, after a certain number wide? I am still voting

for not original on the Sturm. Maybe re-engraved and the guy used a receiver like the Mendiola receiver to copy?

Bob

Sturm

 

Mediola 

[TennesseeTaylor95]

23 minutes ago, reconbob said:

     Well, that is most interesting and does muddy the water. The wider, flatter letters are much different

than my two samples. BUT, on the Mendiola gun the left side engraving appears very wide, smooth and flat

bottomed and on the Sturm gun it is deeper, not as wide, with (I think) a more noticeable rounded bottom.

Regardless of authentic vs. not-authentic the two markings are not close to being the same. I wonder why the

left side engraving is so much wider than the right side engraving? And looking again at the Sturm look how wide

and deep all the letters are, except for the T's - especially the second T in AUTOMATIC which compared to the

other letters is barely there. As if the T's were pressed/engraved and everything else was ball endmill machined.

I don't get it. Is this a serial number thing? Before a certain number thin, after a certain number wide? I am still voting

for not original on the Sturm. Maybe re-engraved and the guy used a receiver like the Mendiola receiver to copy?

Bob

Sturm

 

Mediola 

Good point, the longer you look at it, the more questions arise than answers. Part of me wonders if the width of the text on the Mendiola gun is just an optical illusion from taking the photo of the gun not square over the text giving it a stretched look. The other part of me thinks that it is genuinely a different length due to the amount of variance. I agree with you that although they are similar, there are multiple discrepancies between the two that make it even more confusing to figure out the exact history of the gun the OP is asking about. Below are cropped photos of both guns where I tried to line them up the best I could to compare the two side by side. Hopefully Mr. Mendiola is ok with me doing that and sharing them with you guys.

[Robert Henley]

As soon as I saw it and the GB add which states in part:

"LIKE NEW CONDITION! APPEARS AS IF IT IS UNFIRED. LOOKS AS THOUGH IT SPENT WW2 TO PRESENT IN COSMOLINE!"

My quick analysis was it was obviously too good to be true.  My first thought was it looked like one of the Russian parts guns.

I'm not sure but I'd want to see the current ATF paperwork and FOIA history of this gun to trace its origins and history.

[reconbob]

   Serial numbers 6,650 apart. Probably about as close as you could expect to get. I am thinking

part of it could be the lighting. #475933 looks deeper with shadows. #469333 looks flat with no

shadows at all.

Bob

[Varminter]

You guys need to tell me how Vince Foster died. A compliment. Good detailed analysis on this, btw.

[reichstall]

So just for my learning do not dies wear with each stamping and these were made pre computer run machines so when the new dies were made I am sure they

get real close but will there not be human error on dies.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by reichstall

[TSMGguy]

I believe this gun is legitimate, except for possible refinishing. All components seem to have the same color and sheen. The uniform sheen may be a light coat of oil added for the photos. Notice evidence of Blanchard milling in the photos immediately above. This is a characteristic of all M1928A1s and can't be faked. With any buffing at all, it's gone. We might be seeing variations in original markings.

 

I posted an extensive set of photos of my M1928A1 elsewhere. It has almost all of its original finish, is unissued, matching, and all correct. The consensus of the "experts" was that the gun is a refinished fake. My conclusion? Don't post photos on the internet.  

[TD.]

ranger1385,

If a re-blued Model of 1928A1 is something you would consider owning, I believe you are making a mistake by not going and taking a look. The price is important too but the education you will obtain by every Thompson you examine is well worth the time and effort you will expend. Pictures are always important but not absolute.  Unlike many sellers, this seller has provided a bunch of pictures to give you a good sense of what to look for during a hands on inspection.  What I do know is the receiver is pure Savage. The trademark is the best clue. And the frame is matching - another great plus. I believe the barrel may have been changed in the past but this is common on military guns, especially guns that have been refinished. I also believe the re-bluing was by a past civilian owner or dealer - not by a military. The left side suspect markings as pointed out above could easily be explained by the lightening in the pictures. Or this Thompson could have been pitted on one side of the receiver and a past owner removed the pitting and had to clean-up the markings. I am with the lightning theory but will admit military Thompson guns are not my specialty. In either case, this Thompson is not in original condition. But it is nice to look at and may make the perfect shooter gun for someone. I believe looking at it in-person will give you a much better perspective. It will also give you a chance to meet and sum up the owner and inspect all the past IRS/ATF forms. Where did this gun come from? How long has he owned it? Answers to those questions and more will allow you to make a much better informed purchasing decision.  You also may get to shoot it. I recommend you take the drive!

Good luck!!!

[anjong-ni]

I believe I've read that refinishing experts like PK, Cylinder & Slide, Turnbull  and others would "touch-up" faded engraving or scratched roll-marks on some very unique, expensive firearms.

Such "restoration" is currently out-of-fashion. It wasn't always so.

If not with a ball-mill under a microscope, how else then?  ...Phil

[TennesseeTaylor95]

1 hour ago, anjong-ni said:

 

If not with a ball-mill under a microscope, how else then?  ...Phil

I'm just shooting from the hip on this as I have no experience with engraving or touching up engraving, but maybe another option could be with using a pantograph machine? I suppose it could be set to a 1:1 ratio with another receiver with the same roll marks being used as the template. Likewise, a letter template set with the exact same style of lettering could also be used and then set the machine to the correct ratio for the letter templates to get the right engraving size/height. This way the pantograph could be paired with a very fine tracing stylus to go in the lettering of the template or the original engraving and then be matched with an appropriate engraving bit or ball mill to touch up the lettering on the other receiver. It seems like a lot of work, but I guess it could get the job done if one is focused on the work and very careful.

[Dan K]

Several years ago at SHOT show, c. 2012, I talked with the guy who ran the Colt custom shop. When they would get the old revolvers in for reblue, to recut the roll marks, they would pay a tool maker to sit there and hand engrave them. Slow tedious work that requires skilled labor and a steady hand.