buzz Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 I didn't see a thread on this one yet. TD was kind enough to alert me to this one - http://jamesdjulia.com/item/1685-396/ This gun is only around 25 serial number away from my Savage Commercial and it looks more or less identical. I figure that this gun was made in week 6 or so of Savage Thompson production, based on the production total and the dates of production. So this is a very early Savage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted April 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 Any guesses on the sale price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin601 Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 $ 34,000 to 38,000. Actually, no idea, but sticking with those amounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) no barrel mark? i see the line on the receiver, but not on the barrel.....mines been re barreled, so i have no idea if this is normal for a factory barrel on a S1928??? really nice condition....and the police markings dont detract from it at all...its so nicely done i would consider it a neutral thing or even a positive to some.... will it sell in Colt territory? $34-$38k??? seems like their auctions always sell high.... Edited April 3, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog 1110 Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 It also has a New York drum- not sure what they are selling for right now- $2,000???Nice gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLansky Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 barrel is a replacement barrel. I have a gun from the same pd with the same markings and the barrel has the index line. also, the wood does not appear to be colt wood. many early savages like this one had colt wood. mine does. i believe Buzz' does too. the lyman sight is incorrect. the rivets should be countersunk and not in the white. has the sight been replaced when the barrel was changed out? there are issues with this gun, but that does not mean less knowledgeable folks wont bid it up. my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 its one of the nicest factory finish guns ive seen.....looks like almost no wear.......since this is only the 3rd one ive seen come up since collecting ill be curious to see where it goes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 I agree that the white-not flared rivets on the sight look suspect. Buzz is thiswhat you rivets look like? I think we talked about rivets like this in a previousthread. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 All, I agree with Dave that the barrel has likely been replaced. The pin in the compensator doesn't appear to have any finish, which is inconsistent with original guns. I am not so sure that the sight rivets are not correct. I recently inspected an early Savage gun in the 68,000 serial number range that is in a local police agency. The sight rivets were not blued and appeared very much like the rivets on the gun in the Julia Auction, This gun was all original finish and had British proof marks. The gun was purchased by the police agency in the late 1950's or early 1960's and had obviously been imported back into the United States for law enforcement sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted April 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) The rivets on my Savage are shown in this thread: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18315&hl=domed&do=findComment&comment=156236 I don't know how rivets were installed in 1940, but mine look perfectly uniform. Looking at the rivets on the Julias gun, I don't see any real difference between mine and his except that his rivets have a coating of some kind, looks almost like paint. It certainly doesn't look like parkerizing or black oxide. Edited April 4, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 How much would a replaced barrel effect the price / value on this Thompson if any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normal1959 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 How much would a replaced barrel effect the price / value on this Thompson if any? Original barrel had to be toast so if you consider "shot out" barrel vs. New barrel, my guess is nada. If you compare good original to good replacement, somewhat. I would guess $5000 max. Buyer perspective. I would not buy a gun with a worn out barrel. I would buy a gun with a replacement barrel.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted April 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) I know of three 1928 Savage Thompsons in this immediate serial number range. This one at Julias, mine, and the one in the Donnington collection in England. The Julias gun is about 25 serial numbers away from mine and the Donnington gun is about 300. So they were all made in the same two or three day period. All three guns have a matte black oxide finish on the barrel which looks very slightly darker than the receiver. All three guns have an index mark that was struck with a chisel on the receiver and have NO index mark on the barrel. All three have a curvy S stamp at 9:00 on the fin. So why are we jumping to conclude the barrel on this gun is a replacement? What is the logical basis for that conclusion? Is it possible that all three guns have exactly identical replacement barrels? Or is it more likely that all three guns have identical original barrels? On a side note, don't replacement 28 barrels in the wrapper usually have index lines on them? Until someone can explain how three guns with completely different service histories can all have identical replacement barrels, that strangely lack index lines, I think it's reasonable to assume that the barrels are original. Especially since they were all three made in the same 24 or 48 hour period. Edited April 4, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted April 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) My Savage has a Colt buttstock and Savage front and rear grips. I think it's safe to assume that the Colt stock was on my gun when it was in the possession of the original PD. No gun collector is going to take the original Savage stock off a Savage and replace it with a $2000 Colt stock. Since mine has a Colt buttstock, you might expect all the Savage 28s made on the same day to have a Colt buttstock. But..... The PD that owned my Commercial also owned just one other Thompson, a Colt. Maybe the Colt and Savage stocks were swapped between the two guns? Or maybe not? Who knows? Maybe mine has a Colt buttstock because the Colt stock was at the top of the buttstock bin and the worker just grabbed it and stuck it on? Edited April 4, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted April 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) I think that gun collectors in general tend to assume way too much about guns on the basis of way too few examples. Especially about the originality of parts. You see this tendency in all forms of antique collecting, it must be some kind of survival trait that was built into our brains that makes us be too affirmative on too little data. Here's a good example: People who collect cars will use vintage car brochures to detail the parts in their engine compartment. But they don't realize that the brochures were made by marketing departments, not by museum curators. A lot of times the engines shown in the brochures are from the previous model years or even from different cars. So a lot of car guys will assume the original parts and decals on their engines are wrong and they will replace them with incorrect parts. Stuff like that happens all the time because people insist on recognizing patterns that don't actually exist, from too little data. Edited April 4, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog 1110 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 I'd like to hear from TD on what he thinks about this gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) i have (3) spare S NOS barrels and 1 replacement barrel on my gun...all have index marks on the barrels....this is what made me question if the barrel is original to the gun or not...ive never seen a S barrel w/o a index mark.....as for the rivets on the sight...mine are black on my S1928.....im a few thousands higher than you Buzz....curious why they changed things on a short production run ...maybe didnt have black rivets that week Edited April 4, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 This is why I joined this forum all great information, as with anything collectable sometime things that seen out of the norm can be correct for that item. Buzz that for all the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Has anyone seen a Savage "Commercial" with a Colt TSMG Lyman sight? The "U.S.A." is spaced further apart on the Colt Lyman. Colt TSMG Lyman Savage "Commercial" Lyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Has anyone seen the Dillinger pistol listed there ? Check out the provenance . OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted April 5, 2017 Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 Rivets were not purchased in colors they were typically colored based on the finish of the gun. That said, different alloys take finish differently. I doubt Savage had a strict material specification for the rivets they used and likely just purchased them from a vendor. Whatever was in stock is what was used. Some take the bluing, others did not. I would not read very much into rivets "in the white" as being replacements. Chemical alloy and material hardness both influence how the material will react to the process of bluing, oxiding or phosphating. Also rivets were set with presses, either hydraulic or manual. The anvils and presentation of the part will influence the shape of the rivet. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted April 5, 2017 Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) Has anyone seen the Dillinger pistol listed there ? Check out the provenance . OCM We may have to move this over to the other forum, but I wonder what you think of the provenance. The issue I have is that there is still no proof linking this serial number to Dillinger unless I missed it. I read through the document pretty quickly but it sounds like dad had a cool story why the Colt has a broken safety. I have a few family heirlooms that have "stories" behind them. Knowing more about the history of the pieces than the people that helped identify them for my relatives I can debunk the provenance. I find that family heirlooms are most often the ones that are over embellished. Ron Edited April 5, 2017 by ron_brock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted April 5, 2017 Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 Hi Ron.No reason to even bother to take it over to the " other side" , can't type that fast anymore, don't want to.Buyer beware etc,Crazy on many levels here .... OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwiifirearms Posted April 5, 2017 Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 ...I would buy a gun with a replacement barrel.EricI'd rather buy a gun with an original shot-out barrel. I could always have a replacement barrel installed and still have the original barrel with the gun. That being said I'd have no problem buying one with a replaced barrel either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normal1959 Posted April 5, 2017 Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 ...I would buy a gun with a replacement barrel.EricI'd rather buy a gun with an original shot-out barrel. I could always have a replacement barrel installed and still have the original barrel with the gun.That being said I'd have no problem buying one with a replaced barrel either. Very good point. Funny but I never thought of that.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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