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1928 on Gunbroker with notches on each side of serial number?


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#1 ranger1385

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Posted 03 July 2022 - 08:31 PM

I looked in two of my books to see if there was anything with similar notches.  Just curious if there is an explanation.  

 

And the marking Tommy Gun on top?

 

Savage Thompson 1928A1 Full Auto on Form 3 - Machine Guns at GunBroker.com : 934992153

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

pix786750228.jpg


Edited by ranger1385, 03 July 2022 - 08:37 PM.

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#2 StrangeRanger

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Posted 03 July 2022 - 09:22 PM

The cut before the S/N removed the letters US.

The C in AC appears to be an overstamped A1

Not sure what the second cut removed

I've seen the "Tommy Gun" marking on other Thompsons


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#3 Countryboy77

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Posted 03 July 2022 - 11:41 PM

The us was ground out and a1 to ac.Probly made tge mill mark to make the grind mark look nicer then did the same on the other side to balance it off.It cries for a nitric acid bath and dulite finish.
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#4 ranger1385

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 05:07 AM

Thanks!  Yeah, I thought the same thing about the finish.  Looks well worn.  A lot more MG showing up on broker lately.  Crazy prices though.  


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#5 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 07:24 AM

The Tommy Gun marking is explained in American Thunder II & III by Frank Iannamico.  It was done for trademark purposes.  The 1928A1 I own is Tommy Gun marked.


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#6 TD.

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 11:27 AM

ranger1385,

That particular Savage Thompson on gunbroker has my attention. And yes, I have seen this handiwork previously. Those that have my book, A Thompson Compendium, can find five Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport (AOB) 1928AC Thompson guns pictured with these same milled oval shaped markings. All five are from the Connecticut State Police. Unfortunately, the earliest IRS forms available on these five guns are copies of the 1986 (Form 4467) Amnesty Registration forms that were (fortunately) retained by the Connecticut State Police. The Amnesty forms do state the guns were obtained January 1,1947. I believe this date is just a guess on the part of the official filling out the form. A FOIA request on one of the five revealed the ATF does not appear to have a copy of the original Form 4467; go figure!  I would guess these five were sold to the Connecticut State Police by the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. I cannot explain the lack of a 1940s IRS Form 5 like is found with many other 1928ACs.

 

All five of these 1928ACs (and a Savage Commercial) recently obtained from the Connecticut State Police were displayed at the Hill Family All Thompson Show & Shoot several years ago. You never what is going to be displayed at these great Thompson events. I know a few have been sold. If the new owners would like to file a FOIA request, feel free to reach out to me. Different Disclosure Clerks often find different information.  

 

From there the plot thickens. Another very early serial numbered 1928AC with the milled oval shaped markings was located. Fortunately, the owner had thoughtfully acquired and saved the original Form 5 registration paperwork. This 1928AC was sold to a New York Police Department in 1952 by Numrich Arms Company. This 1928AC was most likely one of the guns/receivers found in the crates by Numrich Arms when they purchased all the Thompson assets in October 1951. 

 

More information about all these 1928AC Thompson guns, including pictures, can be found in, A Thompson Compendium

 

My years long research of the AOB 1928AC Thompson guns has not revealed the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries sold any Thompson guns with a Savage or Colt manufactured receiver. This Savage Thompson, S-161405, may be an exception. If Thomson guns were priced at $1000, I would buy it just to file a FOIA request. I cannot pony up 25K for research purposes. That said, if anyone knows anything about this unusual Savage Thompson, please reach out to me. It first surfaced at Rock Island Auction in 2016. I am hoping to contact the new owner when sold so a FOIA request can be filed. Perhaps the answer may be revealed in the early registration documents.  

 

Attached File  image0.jpeg   95.59K   6 downloads

 

 


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#7 ranger1385

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 11:50 AM

First, I went thru American Thunder last night, before I posted and missed the Tommy Gun part.  Second, I guess I will be purchasing your book.  LOL.  

Last year, I ponied up 20k for a M1A1 and when the wife found out, I got the stink eye for a week.  She doesn't know about the pending (C&R) Sten that I bought.  I'd be on thin ice if I bought this one.  Thank you for the information, you guys are a wealth of info and always readily share that info.  


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#8 katanafred

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 12:11 PM

ranger1385,

That particular Savage Thompson on gunbroker has my attention. And yes, I have seen this handiwork previously. Those that have my book, A Thompson Compendium, can find five Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport (AOB) 1928AC Thompson guns pictured with these same milled oval shaped markings. All five are from the Connecticut State Police. Unfortunately, the earliest IRS forms available on these five guns are copies of the 1986 (Form 4467) Amnesty Registration forms that were (fortunately) retained by the Connecticut State Police. The Amnesty forms do state the guns were obtained January 1,1947. I believe this date is just a guess on the part of the official filling out the form. A FOIA request on one of the five revealed the ATF does not appear to have a copy of the original Form 4467; go figure!  I would guess these five were sold to the Connecticut State Police by the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries. I cannot explain the lack of a 1940s IRS Form 5 like is found with many other 1928ACs.

 

All five of these 1928ACs (and a Savage Commercial) recently obtained from the Connecticut State Police were displayed at the Hill Family All Thompson Show & Shoot several years ago. You never what is going to be displayed at these great Thompson events. I know a few have been sold. If the new owners would like to file a FOIA request, feel free to reach out to me. Different Disclosure Clerks often find different information.  

 

From there the plot thickens. Another very early serial numbered 1928AC with the milled oval shaped markings was located. Fortunately, the owner had thoughtfully acquired and saved the original Form 5 registration paperwork. This 1928AC was sold to a New York Police Department in 1952 by Numrich Arms Company. This 1928AC was most likely one of the guns/receivers found in the crates by Numrich Arms when they purchased all the Thompson assets in October 1951. 

 

More information about all these 1928AC Thompson guns, including pictures, can be found in, A Thompson Compendium

 

My years long research of the AOB 1928AC Thompson guns has not revealed the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries sold any Thompson guns with a Savage or Colt manufactured receiver. This Savage Thompson, S-161405, may be an exception. If Thomson guns were priced at $1000, I would buy it just to file a FOIA request. I cannot pony up 25K for research purposes. That said, if anyone knows anything about this unusual Savage Thompson, please reach out to me. It first surfaced at Rock Island Auction in 2016. I am hoping to contact the new owner when sold so a FOIA request can be filed. Perhaps the answer may be revealed in the early registration documents.  

 

attachicon.gif image0.jpeg

 

I've been watching this one for a while on Gunbroker and am considering buying it since the dealer and I reside in the same state which will hopefully make the Form 4 process a little less time consuming.  I have had a chance to look at it and handle it first hand a couple times at local gun shows over the last few months.  That being said, it does seem to be priced a little high and when you add the cost of stripping the chrome finish and redoing it to something more original ... which brings me some of my other questions - where/who would I look for to get the stripping & refinishing done?  I assume the gun would need to be completely disassembled?  Is the correct original finish blued or parkerized?

Thanks - Fred (the FNG)


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#9 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 12:50 PM

First, I went thru American Thunder last night, before I posted and missed the Tommy Gun part.  Second, I guess I will be purchasing your book.  LOL.  


The information is in the second and third edition.


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#10 Motorcar

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 01:34 PM

It hurts to look at it.


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#11 TD.

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 02:31 PM

katanafred (Fred),

It is definitely an interesting Thompson submachine gun. The Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport (AOB) 1928ACs are parts guns, but from the original manufacturer. This often mis-understood Thompson variation makes for an excellent shooter grade Thompson. I go into great detail on this variation in, A Thompson Compendium. The original finish on the AOB guns is dulite or a dull blue. Search on "dulite" on the forum and you will find more information. The barrel and compensator are usually a brighter blue. The same finish was standard on the Savage made guns. 

 

This particular gun has been discussed previously on the forum: 

 

Chrome or nickel finishes on Thompson SMGs? - Thompson Submachine Gun Message Board - MachineGunBoards.com Forums

 

reconbob goes into some great detail on removing the chrome or nickel finish on a Thonpson. Gunsmith Stan Andrewski may be able to bring this Thompson back to its original finish. Search on the forum for Stan Andrewski or just google his name. I don't know him, but he has a good reputation for making Thompsons beautiful. He can also pin the compensator or make it a 21A style. If mine, I may keep that chrome or nickel actuator! 

 

Since it has not sold quickly, I would guess the seller would entertain all offers. Regarding the transfer, I believe the electronic Form 4 method is the way to proceed on all transfers in the future. I understand the approval time is only 3 to 4 months. Other members may want to expound on this. 

 

Of course, if you buy it, I will be glad to help you file a FOIA request when you are the lawful owner. The past history may be very interesting. I can always be reached on this forum. 


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#12 katanafred

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 02:53 PM

T.D.,

Thank you for your response and information!  I did find the book, "A Thompson Compendium" by Tom Davis Jr. on Amazon - I assume this is the book you wrote and reference in your responses? I plan to buy it asap.

 

I had started the previous "Chrome or nickel finishes on Thompson SMGs?" thread because I was trying to simply understand how it might have gotten this way in the first place.

 

I will keep you in mind regarding help with the FOIA request if I do decide to move on it.


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#13 ranger1385

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 02:54 PM

Yep, I missed it.  Page 134/135.  It's in the index.   I always check my books before I ask a question.  I just missed it.  I would love to own a 1928 and the Tommy Gun marking, I would think makes it a little more rare.  But the finish is pretty rough.  

 

First, I went thru American Thunder last night, before I posted and missed the Tommy Gun part.  Second, I guess I will be purchasing your book.  LOL.  


The information is in the second and third edition.


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#14 katanafred

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 02:56 PM

FYI - it looks as though Stan Andrewski passed away a few months ago  :(


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#15 katanafred

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 05:03 PM

Looking back at the gunbroker listing photos for this gun, I've noticed that "FULL AUTO" is all on one line instead on on two lines like other Savage guns? Also, the selector and safety switches are not knurled. The "C" also looks stamped over top of a "1".


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#16 mohawk64

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 06:00 PM

I'm sure stan's son is more than capable of doing a good job.
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#17 Countryboy77

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Posted 04 July 2022 - 06:18 PM

It could be worse. Could be gunkoted .
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#18 TD.

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Posted 05 July 2022 - 09:50 AM

+1 for katanafred!!! 

 

Excellent observation on the single line FULL AUTO marking on the frame. I would like to see a better picture to see if there are any signs of the FULL AUTO markings being hand stamped.

 

Attached File  FULL AUTO - One line - pix786750228.jpg   49.35K   16 downloads

 

I missed this important point because I studied the initial pictures from Missouri Tactical when it was first offered for sale. Below is the picture I keyed in on for the frame.

 

Attached File  image3 - Frame Number.jpeg   62.19K   15 downloads

 

It appears like a normal Savage Arms marked frame. 

 

A quick review of the gunbroker auction pictures revealed the frame serial number is not pictured. And you have to really look close to see the one-line FULL AUTO marking. All this leads me to believe S-161405 is most likely a Numrich Arms manufactured Thompson gun from parts found in the crates. Numrich Arms may also be responsible for the chrome or nickel plating - all just guesses on my part. 

 

A Freedom of Information Act request may solve the mystery of this old Savage Thompson. Hopefully, a new owner will be interested in pursuing the past history.

 

All good stuff!!!    


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#19 katanafred

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Posted 05 July 2022 - 10:15 AM

TD - thank you!!

 

With this possibly being a Numrich Arms manufactured Thompson gun, does it lower it's value even more relative to it's high asking price?


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#20 Got Uzi

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Posted 05 July 2022 - 10:56 AM

Its all a matter of perspective-would you rather spend $19.5k-$22k for a West Hurley or $25k for a "real" WWII Thompson, tho be it a pimp daddy special.....I'd opt for a USGI one as its better than a WH gun.  Doesn't matter is Numrich assembled it with suprlus WWII USGI parts or not.  Its still a WWII USGI gun.  Its the Form 4 that will say different.


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