1921 Colt Appears To Be A 1968 Amnesty With Serial # Obliterated

[Guest title ii]

Something you dont see everyday...

 

http://atfmg.smugmug.com/Other/Thompson-21-colt/23443106_m9m353#!i=1894037202&k=GB7VcNb

[Robert Henley]

I was looking at a close up of picture 17, and noticed no SN. You can see upper left from where the SN would be what appears to be "IRS6225AL." The first three letters are hard to make out, so may be something else. I'm looking at ATII at the Colt section, and it looks like a non-Colt lower and the non-knurlled 1928 style actuator. I'd be interested in opinions on Colt parts and what you can tell from the pictures as well as the SN issue and anything else of interest.

 

Thanks, Robert

[newtommygunner]

How about the hidden ser#?

[bug]

I'm not near a GH SN book but I wonder if the 6225 in the IRS SN has any significance? The actuator looks like a Colt 21>28 Navy that had an ear or two repaired. The front end doesn't look too bad but overall the gun is a real barker. It's a registered, transferable SN with some metal around it.

 

Bob D

[jim c 351]

How about the hidden ser#?

 

Question for the experts.

 

#1---How much would this mismatched, rusted, butchered Thompson be worth as is.

#2--- How much would it be worth if the hidden serial number proved that it was once owned by Capone or Dillinger.

Jim C

[Robert Henley]

How would the SN be removed (without it looking like it's been removed in the picture)? Or can someone else see signs of the SN having been removed and I just can't tell because of the condition of the receiver.

[Sig]

How would the SN be removed (without it looking like it's been removed in the picture)? Or can someone else see signs of the SN having been removed and I just can't tell because of the condition of the receiver.

 

 

I looked at it and it is hard to see. There is an option to blow up the picture 3X. My thought is that it looks as if the original number was ground off. It would be sweet to pull the barrel and get the hidden number, to trace that.

 

Not sure about the non-Colt lower, agree on the actuator it looks to be two piece and clearly missing the knob, the safety lever is not original.

 

Anyone else on the barrel, it looks way too shiny to be original to this Thompson but the pics and angles do not allow a strong opinion.

[mnshooter]

Looks like an overstamp "8" right where it should be.

Definitely looks like weight rivets in the actuator.

Anyone have enough influence with Franks to get him to pull the barrel?

'Course, there's always the risk of damaging the finish.

[gijive]

Looks like an overstamp "8" right where it should be.

Definitely looks like weight rivets in the actuator.

Anyone have enough influence with Franks to get him to pull the barrel?

'Course, there's always the risk of damaging the finish.

 

 

I agree with mnshooter, there is a trace of something right where the Model No. and serial number should be. It appears that the serial number may have been polished off somehow, as that area of the receiver has some tool marks and striations present and no bluing left. It would be interesting to have the barrel removed and see what the real number is, if it is still there. Although, even if the real number was located it would be only of historical interest, once BATF registered the gun with the number they stamped on it, that becomes the guns serial number in BATF records.

 

The grip frame is a Colt made frame. The internal trigger parts are nickel colored, as they should be and the rear grip is a Colt era grip, not a WWII grip. The only piece obviously replaced is the safety selector, which is a WWII replacement part. Barrel looks original, too. Of course, a closer inspection would be warrented to verify that. The actuator is a two-piece with an ear replaced, obviously.

 

If thge gun is all original parts, it would be a scarce variation of a 1928 Navy Model (possibly) without a compensator. Of course, this is mere speculation on my part, the gun would have to be examined in person to be sure.

 

Here are a couple of enlargements of the mark mnshooter is referring to:

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Mark1.jpg

 

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Mark.jpg

Edited June 9, 2012 by gijive

[DLansky]

this gun is in Gordon's book. the serial number was 6225. it belonged at one time to a sheriff's department in Fargo North Dakota and was also once in the JCE inventory. Gordon shows it as a 28N, which is consistent with the actuator and gijive's and mnshooter's comments. that also means that the barrel is most likely a replacement barrel as I beleive the 28A's were all purchased by the west virginia state police or prison system.

[Sig]

Nice observations

I thought that was an E and it did not make sense to me at the time so I ignored it.

D'oh!

[DLansky]

I sent Frank an email with questions on the gun and he replied that it was sold pending funds.

[gijive]

Dave,

 

I am not disputing anything you are saying regarding this gun, but does Gordon explain how they came up with the 6225 number? Normally, on guns that ATF stamps where the serial number has been obliterated, the ATF number has no bearing on the original serial number of the gun. I am not saying that this is the case with this gun, maybe they pulled the barrel and found the hidden number, then incorporated that into the new number. I also wonder if Gordon speculates why the Auto-Ordnance Trademark on the top of the receiver was removed? If the gun belonged to and was registered to a Sheriff's Department in North Dakota, it must have been a confiscated criminal gun. There would be no reason for a law enforcement agency to deface the serial numbers and trademark on a gun. I am not familiar with the the Dealer (Frank) selling the gun. Does he offer any explanation as to the origin of the gun?

[Robert Henley]

Does he offer any explanation as to the origin of the gun?

 

The reply I got on my question about the history was as follows:

 

"This is an amnesty registered bring back which the SN's were removed from. My guess is someone brought this back and removed the serial numbers from the gun and registered when they had a chance to do so in the amnesty."

Edited June 10, 2012 by Robert Henley

[TD.]

I have seen Colt Thompson's with the serial numbers removed; never the trademark! It would be interesting to know if the front end of the actuator slot was squared or round. Since we are guessing, I would not be surprised to find it is an amnesty registered Thompson, probably one that had been in inventory at a law enforcement organization for many years. Bob hit the nail on the head, "...a real barker."

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

GH's lineage on this Colt Navy is somewhat confusing. He has Davison Gun Sales of Detroit as an owner of this Colt, but when they owned it, he has it as a 1921AC. That JCE owned this in 1971 means all bets are off. #9 is visible in the serial number area which makes the actual Colt factory serial number confusing. Was #6225 the original Colt serial number confirmed as it was found under the receiver grip mount? Was this Colt originally owned by the CCSD in the 1920'S/30'S, or did they confiscate it at some point? Doug Richardson should have the original shipping record on this serial number. It is doubtful that this was a WWII/Korea/Vietnam "bring back" trophy.

 

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/ColtTSMGnoserialcuedited.png

[colt21a]

Worth every bit of $5,000.00 for the paperwork.. and just think another $5,000.00 for restoration......

 

I am sure the new owner was foaming at the mouth with excitement to get a real Colt....

 

Ron/Colt21a

 

p.s. it is good to get Old. and not really care about this stuff.

{cond. markings,shape.}

just the history

[giantpanda4]

As GIJive said, I would highly doubt that the IRS number has anything to do with the original s/n. Why? I saw one in AZ last spring and the number was not matched.

[gijive]

GH's lineage on this Colt Navy is somewhat confusing. He has Davison Gun Sales of Detroit as an owner of this Colt, but when they owned it, he has it as a 1921AC. That JCE owned this in 1971 means all bets are off. #9 is visible in the serial number area which makes the actual Colt factory serial number confusing. Was #6225 the original Colt serial number confirmed as it was found under the receiver grip mount? Was this Colt originally owned by the CCSD in the 1920'S/30'S, or did they confiscate it at some point? Doug Richardson should have the original shipping record on this serial number. It is doubtful that this was a WWII/Korea/Vietnam "bring back" trophy.

 

 

Good eye, Arthur,

 

I think the character in the above line is an "E", like SIG thought. "E" as in Model of 1921. By the way, I posted your same concerns in an earlier post. I don't think the ATF serial number has anything to do with Colt gun No. 6225. I am not buying the Vet "bring back" story either. This gun appears to have been either stolen or used by the criminal element and probably confiscated by police at some point. The grip frame even shows the same type of finish loss as SVDM gun # 7580, where acid was used to try to raise the serial number. I hope that someday the barrel on this gun can be removed to see if the hidden number is still present. I'm sure the gun has an interesting history, whatever it is.

[Sig]

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/Thompson%20Pilots/Mark1.jpg

 

 

Dragged out some pics of my own collection and even opened the safe to make a direct observation.

There should be no "E" for MODEL or even an "8" vertically where we see one here. They should be much further to the left or toward the barrel. Same goes for serial NO of course.

 

In the top photo one can see a fairly deep gouge in the metal, where the MODEL and NO's are normally. Look below the tail of the arrow that Arthur put in his post.

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/ColtTSMGnoserialcuedited.png

[Sig]

Here is the gouged area that I see.

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

 

If thge gun is all original parts, it would be a scarce variation of a 1928 Navy Model (possibly) without a compensator. Of course, this is mere speculation on my part, the gun would have to be examined in person to be sure.

 

Chuck,

 

Yes, I noticed your observation about ATF assigned numbers not having anything to do with the original obliterated serial number. Perhaps the confusion stems from Roger Cox, who first listed this serial number as a bona fide Navy owned by the CCSD. Did he see this Colt in person or was the new number on the receiver reported to him by the CCSD or JCE without mention of it being an ATF assigned number?

 

Whomever took the pics refers to this Colt as a 1921. Without the actual confirmed serial number and the stamping designation, it is a mystery as to which Model AOC shipped out back in the 20's/30s. Considering the "three" piece actuator, the third piece being the knob of unknown origin, and the obliteration of the "U.S. NAVY" and "MODEL OF 1928" except for the "E", JCE is just the type to have sold this as a scarce variation overstamp without a Cutts.

 

 

I sent Frank an email with questions on the gun and he replied that it was sold pending funds.

 

Frank? Was this Colt advertised for sale somewhere? What was the price?

[jim c 351]

 

If thge gun is all original parts, it would be a scarce variation of a 1928 Navy Model (possibly) without a compensator. Of course, this is mere speculation on my part, the gun would have to be examined in person to be sure.

 

Chuck,

 

Yes, I noticed your observation about ATF assigned numbers not having anything to do with the original obliterated serial number. Perhaps the confusion stems from Roger Cox, who first listed this serial number as a bona fide Navy owned by the CCSD. Did he see this Colt in person or was the new number on the receiver reported to him by the CCSD or JCE without mention of it being an ATF assigned number?

 

Whomever took the pics refers to this Colt as a 1921. Without the actual confirmed serial number and the stamping designation, it is a mystery as to which Model AOC shipped out back in the 20's/30s. Considering the "three" piece actuator, the third piece being the knob of unknown origin, and the obliteration of the "U.S. NAVY" and "MODEL OF 1928" except for the "E", JCE is just the type to have sold this as a scarce variation overstamp without a Cutts.

 

 

I sent Frank an email with questions on the gun and he replied that it was sold pending funds.

 

Frank? Was this Colt advertised for sale somewhere? What was the price?

Artthur,

As I recall---

Subguns.com

Frank Goepfert

$ 16,000.00

Jim C

[gijive]

Sig,

 

Yes, you are correct, the numbers should be farther left. I did notice the shallow depression after you pointed it out. Maybe the finish loss is from the acid used to try and raise the serial number? Similar to the SVDM gun? Anyway, it would be interesting to know the real number of this gun. Maybe the new owner reads this forum and will be willing to let someone remove the barrel and see what the correct number is. Maybe it is the missing McSwiggin gun from 1926?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Artthur,

As I recall---

Subguns.com

Frank Goepfert

$ 16,000.00

Jim C

 

OK. Goepfert is advertising it as a Colt 1921.

http://www.sturmgewe...cgi?read=149220

Edited June 10, 2012 by Arthur Fliegenheimer