Colt TSMG With S/n Gound Off And Re-Stamped

[BangBang]

A friend of mine saw a 1921 (don't know if it was an "A" or an AC) at a gun shop that had had the serial number ground off and re-stamped. It is a very old class 3 dealers shop so it would have to be legit. It would seem like this could be a gun with a colorful history. I am serious about buying a Colt and would be interested in some input.

[ineverlistentoFM]

any pictures? and what is your guy asking? i may be interested if you are not going to buy it. thanks! very interesting!

[jim c 351]

BangBang.

It may indeed have a interesting history, but you have provided zero information.

You'll have to come up with something more.

Jim C

[Z3BigDaddy]

But anyhow back to reality and BangBang could be a ATF renumber from the 68 amnesty perhaps.

[BangBang]

I have been attempting to be diligent in gathering information in preparation for the purchase of my first Thompson. Unfortunately, the information I provided on this gun was all I had. The shop is old. The owner is old. He's not a new dealer and should know what he's doing i.e. he probably didn't grind the s/n off himself. He has a number of machine guns in inventory. The reason for my question was to try to find out iif there are some of you who might know of reasons that s/n's might be reapplied: factory? atf? whatever? I'm guessing the process of grinding off a number and then having another restamped over it would create somewhat of an unsightly appearance. I don't know if that would necessarily make the gun worth less but I suppose it would depend on the gun's verifyable history which I don't have. I thought that there might be some helpful hypotheses available on this forum which would assist me in my inspection of the gun. Thanks for the input, especially Ron......I'm glad you found my ignorance a source of amusement.

[ineverlistentoFM]

looking forward to pictures and information Bang Bang

[jim c 351]

BangBang,

While Fred Burke did collect Thompsons he wasn't concerned with condition. His concern was, if he left a chopper at a crime scene, it couldn't be traced back to him.

When the police arrived on the scene the first thing they would notice is a free machinegun laying on the ground. They would take it back to the station and at sometime later decide to register it. Then the gun would need a serial number. So- the US Treasury Dept would assign one. The TSMG did have a secret serial number under the grip mount ,but alas it was secret.

SO-- if the barrel and grip mount were to be removed and the gun could be traced back to Baby Face Nelson , it would be worth a lot . On the other hand , if it traced back to Joe "Insignificant" Stickup, then it would be worth much less than a nice Colt.

You failed to even tell us the price. That's really basic. Thats why we are having a little fun at your expense.

Jim C

[BangBang]

Thanks, Jim. I get what you're saying. Knowing of the shop owner's reputation, unfortunately the chances of him disassembling the gun and letting me search for more serial numbers is slim and none. The asking price is $25,000

[TD.]

BangBang,

You are at the right place to learn about Thompson Submachine Gun. I suggest you spend sometime looking at this Board, especially the FAQ section, above, before spending any money. I also suggest you purchase a copy of The Ultimate Thompson Book by Tracie Hill. In addition, look for a copy of American Thunder or American Thunder II by Frank Iannamico - now out of print but can be found on the second hand market. Both of these books will greatly increase you knowledge about this very expensive product you are in the market to purchase. You also need to join one or both of the following organizations: The American Thompson Association and The Thompson Collectors Association. The quarterly newsletters and yearly shows are very enjoyable and worth the modest expense. Google each name and you will find their respective Internet sites.

 

I read your post and can tell that you have not had an opportunity to look at this Thompson with the ground off serial number. As a rule, any firearm with a defaced serial number or marking is worth less than one than is not altered. That said, registered machine guns are a little different in that the registration makes it valuable. The bottom price range for a Colt Thompson is not $25,000; some have and will sell in the $18,000 range. Everything depends on condition and completeness. Usually, firearms with defaced serial numbers are not in pristine condition. Colt Thompson's containing a mixture of WWII parts are also much cheaper than complete guns. As to the background of this particular Thompson, buy the gun, not the story. Provenance can be important is establishing value but provenance must be documented. A word of mouth story is worthless.

 

If you would like some good opinions as to the value of this Thompson, take and post some pictures. Use the macro setting on your camera to get some close-up shots of the markings. Based on what you posted, it may not be a Colt. There is a good chance someone on the Board may be familiar with this Thompson. That is the type of information you will find helpful if you are interested in purchasing this Thompson.

 

Good luck!!!

[BangBang]

Thanks for the repply, TC. I really appreciate your taking the time.

 

There is a lot to learn about Thompsons. I am a member of TATA and attended the show and shoot this year which was a bunch of fun. 'Good group of folks. I also have Tracie's "...American Legand" book with which I've spent a good deal of time. I wonder if his second book has a lot more information or if there is a goo deal of duplication.

 

I sort of have my heart set on a Colt Thompson but I'm starting to think my current level of expertise is inadequate to justify the necessary investment. I'd relaay like to find some examples of the $18,000 Colts as it seems everything I've seen is way north of $20,000 (as in $30+) , especially with any accompanying level of confidence.

 

Perhaps patience would be useful at this point.

 

Thanks again.

[colt21a]

I have been attempting to be diligent in gathering information in preparation for the purchase of my first Thompson. Unfortunately, the information I provided on this gun was all I had. The shop is old. The owner is old. He's not a new dealer and should know what he's doing i.e. he probably didn't grind the s/n off himself. He has a number of machine guns in inventory. The reason for my question was to try to find out iif there are some of you who might know of reasons that s/n's might be reapplied: factory? atf? whatever? I'm guessing the process of grinding off a number and then having another restamped over it would create somewhat of an unsightly appearance. I don't know if that would necessarily make the gun worth less but I suppose it would depend on the gun's verifyable history which I don't have. I thought that there might be some helpful hypotheses available on this forum which would assist me in my inspection of the gun. Thanks for the input, especially Ron......I'm glad you found my ignorance a source of amusement.

I have been attempting to be diligent in gathering information in preparation for the purchase of my first Thompson. Unfortunately, the information I provided on this gun was all I had. The shop is old. The owner is old. He's not a new dealer and should know what he's doing i.e. he probably didn't grind the s/n off himself. He has a number of machine guns in inventory. The reason for my question was to try to find out iif there are some of you who might know of reasons that s/n's might be reapplied: factory? atf? whatever? I'm guessing the process of grinding off a number and then having another restamped over it would create somewhat of an unsightly appearance. I don't know if that would necessarily make the gun worth less but I suppose it would depend on the gun's verifyable history which I don't have. I thought that there might be some helpful hypotheses available on this forum which would assist me in my inspection of the gun. Thanks for the input, especially Ron......I'm glad you found my ignorance a source of amusement.

 

.have a good 2012Ron Colt21a

Edited November 15, 2012 by colt21a

[giantpanda4]

I know you have not seen it yet - but I have had the fun of going on a few hunts to find serial numbers. It is a huge thrill to find one. You know what we did if you saw our presentation on Michigan Thompsons at the TATA lecture this summer.

 

Can you look at the gun for other serial number locations? Especially if you can get the trust of the seller, he also would probably be interested in knowing what the real number of the gun was, and what history can be re-attached to the gun now that you have the correct original number.

 

Also - I assume it is a registered gun. As mentioned here, the number might have a date in it if the ATF was the one assigning the new number.

 

Good luck with your search. I would be happy to help look at the gun if that becomes possible.

[reconbob]

I would say that haste makes waste on this one. The fact that the seller won't

field strip the gun so you can examine it, or allow you to do so (although it sounds

like you might not know how to do this) is all you need to know to walk away.

What would your plan be? To buy the gun and then months later when you are

able to take possession inspect the parts for the first time?

$25K is a lot of money to spend for something you haven't seen. And for this

type of money any legitimate seller should offer to field strip the gun for you and

lay the parts out on a table for inspection.

So read this board and the books and get comfortable with the suject and be

ready to strike when a good gun comes along at a good price.

 

Bob

[BangBang]

I will try to meet with the seller today or tomorrow and find out a) what, if anything, he knows about the gun/history/etc, and if he is willing to allow someone [an expert] to inspect the gun. I believe he bought it from an estate and has spent no time on research.

 

I have field stripped a '21 before but under the tutelage of an expert. I'm not real sure about doing it myself to a gun I don't own.

 

I of course remember your presentation at the TATA show, giantpanda4. It was most interesting. Thanks for the offer to help - I may take you up on it.

 

'Also good advise, reconbob. You make good points, some of which should be obvious but tend to be obfuscated by excitement. I need to remember: "breathe in, breathe out, ..."

Edited November 15, 2012 by BangBang

[OCM]

Might see if you can sneak out the name of the estate he got it from, might help. Also if you get a # , we can trace some of the numbers from the historical outlaws or check in Gordon's book to view past history.

As Jim C said, you accidently run across a Dillinger, Nelsom, Floyd, Karpis gun, it's lottery time and you're the winner- But don't hold your breath.

 

OCM

[BangBang]

Ya: "breathe in, breathe out...[repeat]"

[BangBang]

 

Here are some of the photos I took yesterday. The dealer was much more cooperative than I expected although he had no history to provide me. He did say that he had purchased the gun twice, the second time being from the guy he had sold it to because he was moving to a state where they were not allowed.

 

The selector markings indicate an original number over 3000. There were no markings on the compensator.

 

The gun has been refinished as the "grind off" marks/orig s/n are smoothe and evenly blued. The drum may have been resprayed.

 

Any comments are welcomed. Thanks.

[bmarvin]

I don't see that as being worth 25,000 even if the serial number wasn't ground off.

A re-finsh kills the value of Colts

If you can't steal it (buy it in the mid teens) then walk away.

Brian

[Mike Hammer]

They really did a poor job on the grinding, looks pretty deep. And an even poorer job on the re-serialize number. Looks like it may have been registered in the '60's, I think that's when it was under IRS jurisdiction. perhaps this is a gun that came back from an overseas buyer. What other possibilities are there for a re-stamped gun?

 

Mike Hammer

[Gio]

Bang Bang,

 

You need to disassemble the gun and make sure the internals are Colt with correct barrel and compensator . Yes the reblueing and more so the buchered serial # reduce the price. However it is still worth more than a WH. 25K is a good starting point if you could buy for 22K or 23K I think in todays market it would be a good price.

 

It also depends on ones fiances. If you can afford to spend 35K for a better Colt I would let this one pass. If one is only looking to spend 20 to 25 for a Thompson and the only two negatives were serial # and reblueing your in the ball park.

 

Just my 2 cents. I would be a player.

 

Frank

[giantpanda4]

Yeah, well ground. The only way we may know the real original number is to see under the grip mount.

 

There was a discussion a while ago about IRS numbers. I remember they had the date in them, but clearly this one does not. Maybe they knew the correct number? Who has any data on 6022? I am on vac and have no Gordon book with me...

[woodsy]

The fact that the serial number has clearly been ground out before refinishing makes this gun worthy of further research. It has either a criminal past or is an ex-IRA gun. It needs to have the barrel professionally pulled and the fore-grip hanger removed for a serial number check. The refinishing does kind of spoil it though....

[colt21a]

Offer him $15,000.00 as a shooter {blaster} oh wait I'm really old school when we paid around $5,000.00 for shooter's.its nothing special at all. and with defaced number's and a bad polish reblue job and tacky wood. how can any real Colt collector go ga ga over it.

 

wait after HOstess and 100 companies go out of business or cutbacks in 2013 stuff will be falling out of the woodwork.. you don't need a Colt Tommy to fight off the hordes, and many will be selling the family jewels soon.and yes estate sale's.

 

I wanted a real bringback k98k German sniper for decades..well bought a $1,500.00 clone{ instead of the $15,000.00. and sleep well over it. the 8mm round will do the same damage out of a clone or the real deal the waffen Markmens used in 1945.

 

don't be in some big hurry letting the money burn a hole to get one.after going through over 125 tommies' take it from one who knows a little about Thompson's.another will always come along. and sometimes after you pull the trigger on one. another pop's and you go Darn I should have waited.I also have saved many a guy from doing a bad deal and losing money.yeah i can be brutally honest and no humor or jokes also when it comes to Thompson's.then its game time.

 

otherwise its all fun. and History.Ron/Colt21a

 

back in the day i was buying five and ten at a time.so yeah i've been to the rodeo. in fact bought and sold it also.

[BangBang]

Thanks again to all for your great input. What I'm really looking for is Colt Thompson in "reasonable" condition that I can enjoy shooting and, when the time comes, I won't lose my shirt selling. This ain't that gun so I think I 'm going to take a pass.

 

If anyone else has an interest in it, let me know. I have more photos and will be glad to forward location details.

[AlexanderA]

I wouldn't want it at any price, because of that butchered serial number.

 

Now, here's an interesting question -- let's say you were to buy it, remove the barrel, and discover the true serial number lurking under the grip mount. I'm sure there are craftsmen that could build up the ground areas with welding, and refinish to restore the damage. What would be the legality of re-engraving the true serial number in the proper places? (Assuming the added IRS number was left in place.) Could the ATF registry be amended to reflect the true serial number?