Selling My Collection- Update #5 8016 sold Information on the Savage

[bmarvin]

I have decide that it is time to sell my machine guns. The German guns, BAR, Reising’s, and Grease guns have already been sold. This post relates to my Thompsons. All my accessories will be listed later on. These are the best of the best or, in the case of the 27's, the rarest of the rare. I am flexible on terms but I’m not looking for any trades.


Savage Thompson #s-1-xl is a Savage 27 semi owned by Bannan
Colt #4787 27AC with semi parts SOLD
Colt # 5066 27A with semi parts SOLD
Colt #14351 21AC with meter site SOLD
Colt #6164 21/28 Navy The bank vault Thompson. That is SOLD
Colt #8016 21/28 Navy. Price is $SOLD
Colt #167 21 A The Hardware store Thompson with all papers, drum, pictures etc SOLD

I will either update this post with photos and details or start a separate post for each gun, whatever David prefers. Email is the best point of contact.

Thanks
Brian

5.10.13 6164 and 4787 are sold

5.18.13 8016 sold

5.14.13

Today I was speaking with Gordon Herigstad regarding some Colts. During the conversation, he told me that James Bannan told him that the semi Savage S-1-XL was homemade versus a factory Savage. I also spoke to Tracie Hill regarding the gun and he said Bannan always told him that a Savage retiree was given this gun for a retirement gift but Bannan could never provide proof. I do have the amnesty form on the gun and it did transfer to me on my C&R. The gun is still a registered machine gun regardless of the origin. West Hurleys are selling in the upper teens and WW2 28's are in the mid 20s'. Due to the uncertain origin of this one gun, I will listen to other offers.

Brian

Edited July 2, 2015 by bmarvin

[Sig]

for my asking prices notes

anyone catch the asking prices on the sold items

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Three sold in 2 hours from the time of listing on this board? Wow!

[dalbert]

Brian,

 

Please continue to update this post with photos and details as needed.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[dalbert]

Three sold in 2 hours from the time of listing on this board? Wow!

 

Arthur,

 

I'm impressed, too...I didn't even see it until 3 items were listed as sold.

 

David

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

 

Three sold in 2 hours from the time of listing on this board? Wow!

 

Arthur,

 

I'm impressed, too...I didn't even see it until 3 items were listed as sold.

 

David

 

Perhaps they were definitely sold prior to being listed here. Even an SPF would be amazing in such short a time span.

[Ron Mills]

Wow! Good for you, Brian. No more Jif or Skippy's for you. Move on up to the Smucker's! Seriously, way to go. I hope they all go to good folks.

[bmarvin]

Wow, thanks for all the emails and messages. I'll try to answer questions here.

 

Before posting, I spoke with a handful of collectors that I dealt with before.

They committed to buy the guns I marked sold. I have posted my collection here before

so I thought I would post what was sold to prevent people from inquiring about specific serial numbers

that they may have remembered from older posts.

 

If someone tells me "I'll take it", I consider it sold and mark it as such even if no funds have been received.

 

I won't disclose prices of sold items, that is up to the buyers if the choose to release that information.

 

Yes photos and history of the guns are coming. I have extensive provenance on the guns and it takes time to scan all

the documents and try to obtain decent photos.

 

Yes, these are expensive but they are also some of the nicest and rarest guns you will ever see. The 2 Navy's are every bit as nice as 167 at a fraction of the price. The Savage 27 is the only one in existence. I don't know how many original 27 Colts are left

with the semi parts.

 

Parts and accessories will not be sold at this time. Some of the gun buyers want a crack at them before I post a list.

 

Flexible terms. Really, whatever works. You can pay 5% a month until it's paid for if that's what works for you.

When I bought these, I had favorable terms to work with that allowed me to own these guns and I'll do the same now.

 

Thanks again

Brian

[bmarvin]

Here is the documented history on Colt Navy 6164.

 

 

Colt Thompson #6164 21/28 Navy was shipped to the
First National Bank of San Angelo Texas on May 8th 1934.
In 1967 it was sold to Mr. Ellis who was a Pasadena Texas police
officer. He was able to transfer it to himself personally , on a form 5.
The gun remained in his possession until1980. It then transferred
on a form 4 to a Mr. Batchelor in Texas. The gun remained with him until
1988 when a gentleman in Atlanta purchased the gun. The gun sold
in 1988 for $7800. At that time the highest known Thompson sales price was
about $5000 with most guns selling in the mid $2000 range. The gun was advertised
in the shotgun news in 1988 as unfired. In an undated B/H Distribution (Jim Bannan and Tracie Hill) newsletter, #6164 was listed as “mint”. Only #167, the Hardware Store Thompson, was rated higher. I purchased the gun from the Atlanta collector who fired the gun less than 100 rounds..

Having owned(and still possess) both167 and 6164 it is my opinion that 6164 is a superior example. Only the butt plate shows wear, as that is what the gun sat on in the San Angelo vault for 33 years. The file that accompanies the gun has notes stating that Jim Falter, who owned 167, was interested in purchasing 6164 in 1991.

All the documentation transfers with the gun.

 

Photos and document scans coming.....

[bmarvin]

History of Savage Model of 1927 #S--XL.

 

 

 

Savage S-1-XLwas first registered in 1968 by James Bannan. When the gun was first registered on a form 4467, the “date firearm acquired” block was listed as 1948. Mr. Bannan wrote one of the first books on the Thompson,”Notes on Auto Ordnance: The Thompson Submachinegun” in 1975. A later version with the same name, printed in 1989, was co-authored with Tracie Hill. Savage S-1-XL appears on pages 63-64 in the second edition. It is listed as “the only know surviving example of the Savage Model of 1927". Mr Bannan was born May 2, 1920 and passed away on February 2nd 2001. His estate sold 3 guns to a dealer/collector in Philadelphia on June 28 2001. Savage S-1-XL was then transferred to a collector in Arizona, where it stayed until I bought it in 2008.
Once again, the documentation follows the gun including Mr. Bannan’s personal copy of Notes on Auto Ordnance: The Thompson Submachinegun Volume 1 number 1 of 500 as well as a copy of the second edition.

 

5.10.13 Yes, this is a registered machine gun and could be full auto if you swapped the parts.

 

Edited May 10, 2013 by bmarvin

[David]

While I'll never be able to own these, I do enjoy reading the history and pics of these fine firearms.

 

Good luck with your endeavor.

[billatlanta]

Here is the documented history on Colt Navy 6164.

 

 

Colt Thompson #6164 21/28 Navy was shipped to the

First National Bank of San Angelo Texas on May 8th 1934.

. I purchased the gun from the Atlanta collector who fired the gun less than 100 rounds..

 

Having owned(and still possess) both167 and 6164 it is my opinion that 6164 is a superior example. Only the butt plate shows wear, as that is what the gun sat on in the San Angelo vault for 33 years. The file that accompanies the gun has notes stating that Jim Falter, who owned 167, was interested in purchasing 6164 in 1991.

 

All the documentation transfers with the gun.

 

 

Brian is being modest, and is super critical (he thinks a 98% gun is "rough.")

 

If anyone searched "6164" on this board they would see my posts on this gun maybe around 2007,

so, I Guess I'm outed as being the previous owner "Atlanta Collector."

 

At that time I posted mayby 75 high resolution photos of every aspect of 6164,

it was reviewed by everyone, and the experts pretty well agreed that this was the finest Colt

known to exist to date. I don't know of anyone who has ever proven one better.

Only #167 was suspected to be better condition - but many of those who actually saw and touched

167 say that hands down 6164 was superior condition.

 

Having owned 6164 for over a decade, I never got over my initial breath taking gasp when I first

saw it - it literally takes your breath away if you know Colts, it's a shock to see how beautifull a Colt

was when it left the factory.

 

Brian fails to put a number grade on it but I think we would agree on something like 99.something %.

Maybe 99.4%, 99.6%, 99.8% ??

The wood is 100% without question, and I kept it preserved with "Howards Antique" lemon and bees

wax on occasion.

The gun came to me with residue of cosmoline in many places, and the former owner stated he only

ran one drum through it, and I ran a couple mags and one drum through it at Knob Creek.

I saw Tracy Hill at the Creek and asked him if he wanted to shoot it. He was looking at the gun and

went into shock stating: "You can't shoot a gun like this!" "You're destroying history- and just because

you can afford to buy it doesn't mean you have the right to destroy it!" "People like you should not

be able to own a gun like this! And went STORMING off never to be heard of again. Subsequently,

I went over to a friend Rick Cartledge, who was a noted Thompson expert and Author, who is a Vet

in a wheel chair, and he ran one of the above mentioned magazines, saying it was a memorable

experience.

 

My only reason for selling it was due to my advancing age and deteriorating health.

I enjoyed just being able to take it out of the vault and look at it, and show it to a few friends.

But, you know when it's time to let things go.

Brian purchased it from me in a somewhat private sale, not many people knew it changed hands,

and even though Brian posted photos of his collection here-- he just modestly failed to mention that he

had probably the top three Colts known!

 

Frankly, I'm shocked that he is only asking 75K for it. If I still owned 6164 I would not consider selling

it for less than 100K ! And at 75K I would buy it back -- except where the hell am I going with that?

You won't find a better person to deal with than Brian, we've done a few deals and he's old school,

trustworthy and his word is his bond.

 

To whoever buys 6164 - my congradulations, you'll love it and probibly never top it.

 

Bill

Edited May 9, 2013 by billatlanta

[Devil Dog 1110]

Bill I have to compliment you on your comments on 6164.

To own a treasure like that and not shoot it is like owning a race horse that is never allowed to run.

I hope you are doing well- I'd like to shake your hand one day.

 

Jimmy

[billatlanta]

 

Devil Dog 1110,

Thank you for your kind words.

It would be my honor to meet you some day.

Best regards,

Bill

[bmarvin]

Bill,

Thanks for chiming in. Your insight is much appreciated. For those that are interested,

here is the original thread with photos from Bill.

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7528&hl=6164

Brian

 

 

 

Some scans of documents and early transfers.

Edited May 10, 2013 by bmarvin

[billatlanta]

Brian,

Thanks, I reviewed the old thread, you know what's missing now ??????

 

ALL the old CRITIQUE from the EXPERTS !!!!

 

Remember back in the day they used to have arguments and name calling on this board,

it used to be that the administrator had to warn, delete, ban some members about every

day. We had some very active and knowledgeable members, and VERY heated discussions.

 

The arguments went on for hundreds of posts, especially the one about the Colt linage stopping

at Numeric Arms -- that was always a good one.

 

There were great discussions regarding 6164 by most everyone on the board-- but the sole consensus

when it was all done was that there has not been seen a better condition gun in modern times.

 

There were about 50 posts deleted regarding it's condition----- the reason they are deleted is that the

members went back and deleted their posts so they could not be counted against them for "strikes"

and retribution, even the administrator deleted many as being too far out there.

 

I sure miss PhilOhio he used to post several every day and get Z3BigDaddy all rilled up.

Today you could even let your children read the board.

If I recall there is another thread that started with "Shotgun News Ad"

 

If I can help any members in any way, do not hesitate to ask.

Bill

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

#6164 was the subject in this thread from 2006 when Bill was selling it for $79K. #6164 was being compared to #167 and somebody said it left Colt TSMG #167, the supposed #1 best condition example in existence as voted by TCN, in the dust.

 

 

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7494&hl=%2Bcolt+%2B6164&do=findComment&comment=63301

[bmarvin]

Arthur,

As the owner of both I concur with that statement. The only things that 167 has over 6164 is the butt plate condition

and the original Auto Ordnance correspondence.

Brian

[TD.]

Brian,

I hate to hear you are selling your very nice collection. However, I know you are making the decision that is right for you.

 

I am sure anyone would be happy with NO 167 or NO 6164. Since you have owned both at the same time, you get to tell the world which one is the best. All us non-owners just get to listen. I will state that if both were equal in condition or if NO 6164 is just a little better than NO 167, I would choose NO 167 because of the low serial number. Of course, my wishes mean nothing in the scheme of things.

 

I will not be buying any of your fine collection. However, if it were possible, I would consider buying your gun room. That is every bit as nice as NO 6164 and NO 167.

 

Thank you for sharing your wonderful collection with us over the years!

[Z3BigDaddy]

"I sure miss PhilOhio he used to post several every day and get Z3BigDaddy all rilled up.

Today you could even let your children read the board.

If I recall there is another thread that started with "Shotgun News Ad""

 

Lets not revise history... It was the other way around... I never called Phil a "fat ugly pedophile" nor did I lobby to get him fired from his job as he did me... I saved all the horrible personal postings from him and Hardy out of fear I might end up getting a restraining order of sorts on them. But you're right the boards are over moderated now and there can be no true "free" discussions as we had in the past.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Z3BigDaddy

[Devil Dog 1110]

I enjoyed reading the old posts on 6164- sure would like to see pictures of it.

[Devil Dog 1110]

Ooops- my bad- I found them on the old post.

Wow- pretty as a Boykin puppy.

[bmarvin]

Colt #4787 is a 1927 AC version used by the Montana Prison system. It passed through a variety of owners, including Curtis Earl who featured it in one of his catalogs. Not in the same condition as 167,6164 or 8016 but still a very nice example of a hard to find original gun. Comes with the framed items as well.

 

[bmarvin]

Photos of Navy 8016

[billatlanta]

Note,

FWIW, I have personally seen, inspected every inch of this gun, minor disassembled it.

In my opinion the receiver is 100%, not even the slightest imperfection, except possibly the actuator being moved,

or perhaps a line where the selector was turned.

The wood could be the only deduction with the chip missing, and a few rubs- but not refinished.

So - I would not know how to grade it in the scale of 100. If you're looking at finish only- you are near 100.

I can however compare it to #6164 (having owned it for a decade +) as follows.

Number 6164 is stunning overall, with only one screwdriver scratch above the spring retainer and some

very microscopic rubs on the blued surface on the right as if it were set on a wooden table (again microscopic

that can't be seen from 1 foot, and only in the proper light.

Brian mentioned the scuffs on the butt plate where it sat and a couple on the compensator.

The wood is 100% - period.

Keep in mind we're nit picking on a 99+ point something gun!

Number 8016 is the reverse, the receiver is spectacular with only comments on the wood.

I dare you to find even the slightest rub anywhere on the blueing like edge wear on ANY edge,

the tops of the sight guards, the end of the compensator, the top of the actuator-- none!

 

The general concenses is the top 3 Thompsons are by condition #6164, #167, and this #8016.

 

Brian has collected all 3.

 

I have also advised Brian that I suspect this gun has been unfired ever, save any testing by Colt.

 

The history on this gun is that it was confiscated by a Pennsylvania Sheriff during a robbery,

and documented by the property sheet and logged in as confiscated during robbery.

It was then amnistied in 1968.

It is suspected to have remained untouched in the property locker since consficated.

 

The current District Attorney was kind enough to give all the information that he could find,

however I have uncovered additional information that was previously unknown, and I would

be willing to share this information (only) to the purchaser, and could help him/(her?) persue

additional avenues.

 

Brian again is being modest and conservative, and his price on this is way too low, and again

I would buy this one at this price (except for the reasons previously stated.)

 

If anyone thinks these are overstated - please feel free to step up and show something better.

Forget the one in Florida - mint $200,000. (bore's just a little rusty?) and the couple advertised

by the dealer for the secret collector at $100,000., and $85,000. -- not even close!

 

If I can assist anyone on this, let me know.

Bill