Colt Navy At Auction

[Gio]

James Julia is having a auction March 10,11 and12. Lot #3247 is a Colt Navy overstamp with some nice accessories . Gun has Auto Ordnance Tag stating sent to Montpellier,Vermont sheriff dept. May 1939.

 

Comes with FBI case and has cleaning rod with square cut slot.

 

Frank

[giantpanda4]

And a 18 round shot mag and parts kit. As well as the mentioned original shipping tag (cool)

SN #8797. Looks like it was originally sold to Washington Co, VT. (you already said that!)

 

Bid like crazy...

Edited February 26, 2014 by giantpanda4

[Dolphinvet]

They sent me the catalog. Nice looking, but James Julia always seems to command ludicrous prices.

[OCM]

"If you want to run with the big dogs, you can't pee like a puppy."

 

Old quote from a college pal.

[SubmarinerFan]

Very nice gun. 40k or better perhaps?

[TD.]

A beautiful example for sure. This Navy would be hard to beat (...can't pee like a puppy - that's good

 

Note what appears to be a type 1 compensator installed on a Thompson shipped May 10, 1939. Is my observation correct? If so, what is the story about when AOC started using the type two compensators. And replacing barrels?

 

There is at least one other "AC" Thompson we know that was shipped in in the late 1930's - NO 4488, a 1921AC shipped on what appears to be May 2, 1938. See David Albert's and Michael Sig's paper book, page 17, for another original AOC shipping order. The date is not perfectly clear to my old eyes. Perhaps someone could help. Question: Does anyone on the Board have NO 4488, or access to it, and does it have a type 1 compensator?

 

What does it mean if we find two Thompson guns sold (documented) in the very late 1930's with type 1 compensators?

[DLansky]

4488 is mine. I will look and see what compensator it has.

[Sig]

The date on the tag for NO 4488 is April 29, 1939.

City of Meadville Police Dept.

Meadville PA

 

I can not speak as to the type of compensator NO 4488 has, just the data on the tag.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

What does it mean if we find two Thompson guns sold (documented) in the very late 1930's with type 1 compensators?

 

That some Colt TSMG up to the middle production numbers might have been designated for the 1927 Cutts upgrade before an order came in requesting the substitution of the ring site. That Colt "28AC" #8797 was not sold until May 8, 1939, yet has the 1st pattern Cutts, would suggest that the conversion was done before 1932(?) and remained in the warehouse. Date of sale is not as significant as if it were a high serial number above 13,000 with a 1st pattern Cutts.

[TD.]

It is certainly possible. However, given the financial state of AOC I would doubt many guns were converted to Model of 1921AC or Model of 1928 Navy's until purchase orders were received. It cost money to purchase and install compensators (and update the actuators and replace the buffer pilot). I do not doubt a small stock of each model was maintained as the orders for one or two guns trickled in, but not a large number. A converted gun on the rack unsold for 10 or more years does not make fiscal sense to me. It will be interesting to see the type of compensator on NO 4488. There is a lot to learn about the change in compensators and possible barrel updating by AOC.

[DLansky]

N0. 4488 has the type 2 compensator. I post below some pictures.

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

It is certainly possible. However, given the financial state of AOC I would doubt many guns were converted to Model of 1921AC or Model of 1928 Navy's until purchase orders were received. It cost money to purchase and install compensators (and update the actuators and replace the buffer pilot). I do not doubt a small stock of each model was maintained as the orders for one or two guns trickled in, but not a large number. A converted gun on the rack unsold for 10 or more years does not make fiscal sense to me. It will be interesting to see the type of compensator on NO 4488. There is a lot to learn about the change in compensators and possible barrel updating by AOC.

 

Looks like we still have one anomaly. Considering the Navy Model was the best selling Model, retrofitting 1921A Models would be prudent business practice. The order for #8797 came in on May 8 and was shipped May 10. Did AOC decide to return to an outdated method of installing the 1st pattern Cutts onto the muzzle of a 1921A barrel on the 9th? Was it not you who theorized AOC sold Colt TSMG to the military who then used them for years and then retuned them to AOC? What did AOC do with returned samples? Part them out or resell them? If we knew AOC's policy regarding setting aside examples for upgrades before orders came in, and also how retuned samples of the Colt TSMG were restocked, we might fathom how a Model 1921 that was upgraded to a Navy AC with 1st pattern Cutts was used to fill an order long after it was converted.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[mattnh]

Wow - great looking gun.

Any possibily it was refinished?

[colt21a]

looks like it.

[CptCurl]

The auction description states:

 

 

When magazine is in place, the sear does not trip which indicates a weak spring which could easily be replaced. Otherwise, this weapon appears fully functional.

 

It looks to me that the person writing this description has confused the hold-open feature as being a malfunction. Could it be anything else?

 

Curl

[TD.]

Perhaps, but I would not be surprised if more exist. It is not an area anyone is looking at. The shipping order for NO 8797 was created on May 8, 1939. We do not know when the purchase order and payment were received. Same for NO 4488. However, I would not expect a long delay in shipping after payment was received.

 

My thought about sample guns was with the British military, not the US military. Speculation and conjecture aside, we have two Colts over 4000 numbers apart shipped days apart from Auto-Ordnance in 1939, one with a first model compensator and one with a second model compensator. Those are facts that may be useful in the future to help piece together the history of Auto-Ordnance.

 

All good stuff! And very nice Colt's!

[DLansky]

Mattnh, to the best of my knowledge and the knowledge of the person from whom I acquired 4488, it is an original finish gun.

[colt21a]

the overstamp or 4488 i'm lost now RK

[Speeddemon02]

Not to detract from the original topic, but whats the differences between the compensators?

[buzz]

"If you want to run with the big dogs, you can't pee like a puppy."

 

Old quote from a college pal.

I don't want to run with bidders who pay 50% too much for everything. Edited February 28, 2014 by buzz

[joseph12297]

My Navy is 9964, has a type 2 comp also. I don't have Gordons book so I don't know all the specifics. I do have EE Richardson and AOC documentation that it was a Richardson demo gun delivered from AOC in March 1930 as a 21AC. At some point after that it was converted to a Navy, or it was already a Navy stated as a 21AC only on the paperwork.

 

Edited February 28, 2014 by joseph12297

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

There is a lot to learn about the change in compensators and possible barrel updating by AOC.

 

 

Maybe not so much to learn as to interpret. 1936 Auto-Ordnance Corporation law enforcement catalog has an ad for the 2nd pattern marked Cutts Compensator. It states:

 

"Cutts Compensators can only be fitted to Thompson Carbines and Submachine Guns at the factory."

 

But this passage from the price list is what is really on point:

 

"Cutts Compensator fitted to Thompson Gun barrel at factory ---(barrel extra)....$25.00

This would tend to confirm that a barrel that was not already on the Colt MODEL 1921A needed to be purchased with different muzzle threads to fit the 2nd pattern Cutts. What is interesting about #8797 is that the witness mark on the barrel is a smidgen below the witness mark on the receiver. This is not uncommon on barrels that have the 2nd pattern Cutts

Discussed here:

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13868&page=4

But the one photo missing from the Julia auction is a close up of this first pattern Cutts. It seems conspicuous by its absence.

 

 

 

 

[Dolphinvet]

What Thompson's used the first pattern Cutts? From what I know, my gun has the 2nd pattern Cutts (serial number 8857). When did they change from the 1st to 2nd pattern? Also, the third pattern is threaded is it not?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

What Thompson's used the first pattern Cutts? From what I know, my gun has the 2nd pattern Cutts (serial number 8857). When did they change from the 1st to 2nd pattern? Also, the third pattern is threaded is it not?

 

That's just it. There is no confirmation on what Colt TSMG serial numbers were sold with a 1st pattern unmarked Cutts. This Cutts was available from 1926 to 1932(?) when the 2nd pattern marked Cutts became available. What is known is the majority of higher serial numbered Colt TSMG with a Cutts are equipped with the 2nd pattern. The third pattern is threaded, but it would be found on the WWII TSMG. The question is why would AOC fit a first pattern Cutts to a Colt TSMG after the 2nd pattern became the standard. There is a reason why the 2nd pattern compensator has the Cutts logo, patent date and patent number on them. Unless a Colt 1921 already had been adapted for the 1st pattern Cutts and was still in inventory, I doubt Lyman/Cutts would appreciate the unmarked Cutts being fitted to post 1931 orders for the Colt 1921AC.

[TD.]

I really cannot confirm NO 8797 has a first pattern cutts. It appears that way from the pictures but I agree upfront the pictures are not definitive. I believe this was my first question when posting.

 

I am not sure a barrel replacement is necessary if you remove the front sight from a 21A barrel to install a type 2 compensator. Obviously, AOC did not like the fit with the type 1 compensator so the type 2 compensator was created (and this measurement has become the standard and is still in use today).

 

Question: If you remove the front sight from a Colt 1921 barrel, can the boss on the barrel be threaded and pinned for a type 2 compensator?

 

The only hindrance I can see is the slot created for the pin when the original front sight was installed. However, I would think this slot or grove would not interfere with the threading process and could be used, perhaps deepened, to pin the type 2 compensator. Perhaps reconbob or someone with the skills necessary to thread the end of a barrel for a compensator can comment.

 

Why would anyone go to the expense of replacing a barrel when it was not absolutely necessary.

 

All good stuff!