Colt Navy Serial Number 11410 Deactivated for Sale in Germany

[Annihilator]

Not mine, but interesting item. British use ?

 

This one comes probably out of a lake. Hundreds of Thompsons and thousands of other items were dumped in lakes in Austria (by whom i do not know) and show up since the last 20 years on the collectors market in a quite good condition.

 

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5433681

 

Addendum: i realize it has been over/restamped 1982 A1, so it is not a real Navy Thompson and it is not deactivated, the barrel and bolt are missing, receivers are free for sale in Germany.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Annihilator

[765 21D]

Hi Annihilator,

 

It sure looks like a real Colt 1928 over stamp to me and the US and A1 markings were probably added in WW2. The actuator does not look like a two piece one and it could be later, but I can't tell from the photo in the link. I know this Thompson does not have the Navy stamping, but In my opinion you should buy this gun if you can. It could be one of the 3000 Colt Thompson guns shipped to France in 1940.

 

D

Edited April 26, 2015 by 765 21D

[bob241]

Could be English, as Magazine holes have been filled, and the sling mount moved on the forearm to the side.

[765 21D]

Could be English, as Magazine holes have been filled, and the sling mount moved on the forearm to the side.

It could still have been sent to France as part of the 3000 guns shipped to the French and then taken back to England during the retreat from Dunkirk in June 1940. The front grip is not an early pre-war one from what I can see and the sling swivel is a later one and it was easy to move to the left side by drilling two holes. The magazine does not look like a Colt made patent one to me and it is a so called desert used one and this only means the British had the gun at some point, but I guess we will never really know the truth. This is still an interesting Colt 1928 over stamp and I would buy it it if I lived in Germany. I think the Germans are not so strict with the work they do on the deactivation.

 

D

Edited April 26, 2015 by 765 21D

[dalbert]

Hi Annihilator,

 

I know this Thompson does not have the Navy stamping, but In my opinion you should buy this gun if you can. It could be one of the 3000 Colt Thompson guns shipped to France in 1940.

 

D

 

I share this opinion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[reconbob]

This is the first gun like this I have ever seen...a M1921, overstamped to M1928, then

overstamped again to military M1928A1. Does anyone know of such a gun in a collection

or museum here in U.S.? I do not recall one ever mentioned in any context or for sale. This

is a rare bird, yes?

 

Bob

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

@ Bob,

Not sure what you mean by "overstamped again." The non "U.S. Navy" stamped Colt TSMG with the "8" stamped over the "1" and the added "U.S." prefix and "A1" suffix is not that unusual variation of the Colt TSMG. Here is Colt TSMG #1151 in the same configuration.

[jim c 351]

Bob,

There's a picture of another such gun on page 76, in ATII, by Frank I.

A 28 doesn't have to be stamped US Navy to be a 28. All it needs is a heavy actuator. I am told that not all 28's were stamped US Navy.

Perhaps those guns bought by the US Army were ordered stamped as above.

Jim C

[TD.]

Annihilator,

A great post. Thank you for this information. I checked my copy of Gordon's book; NO 11410 is not listed. Perhaps someone with Gordon's latest edition has more information.

Bob,

As Arthur pointed out, this is not that uncommon of a variation. I probably have 5 or more different serial numbered guns like this in my picture collection. Jim C referenced one in Frank's book. Tracie has the same picture on Page 196 of The Ultimate Thompson Book. If you turn to page 276 in Frank's book you will see a Colt that was rebuilt at Rock Island Arsenal (RIA). While the serial number and nomenclature markings are not visible in the picture, it is NO 10444 and it too has the same added U.S. and A1 markings. It is on display at RIA.

I do not believe NO 11410 is from the French contract or is a British purchase or acquisition. On June 30, 1939, the U.S. Government ordered 951 Colt manufactured Thompson submachine guns and spare parts from Auto-Ordnance Corporation (AOC). This was less than a month before Russell Maguire took control of AOC. It stands to reason it took some time for AOC to acquire enough 1928 actuators,buffer pilot assemblies and horizontal fore grips to complete this large order and make shipment. I think it very likely the "U.S." and "A1" markings were applied to these 951 Colt's. This would explain why there is uniformity in the normenclature markings of this type variation. I believe NO 11410 is one of the 951 Colt's that apparently made its way to Europe during the war. If it could only talk...

[cocoabill]

Anybody know if this could be shipped to a relative in Ireland?

[765 21D]

Hi Tom,

 

I have been looking into this since yesterday and I agree with you this Colt 1928 Thompson was not part of the French contract for 3000 guns. The uniform way "U.S." and "A1" are stamped suggest this gun was stamped much later than 1940 and probably at some point after the lend lease act in 1941. However, this particular Colt 1928 has been in British hands at some point because the horizontal front grip has had the sling swivel moved to the left side.

 

I found an article on SAR by Frank Iannamico, that included detailed information on when these " U.S." and "A1" markings were added to 1928 Thompson guns that leave no doubt that these stamps were not added in time for the French contracted Colts, so number 11410 was therfore not part of the 3000 guns shipped to France.

 

 

I really hope whoever buys this 1928 Colt joins here and posts some better photos of this most interesting gun.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 765 21D

[TD.]

765 21D,

I believe the nomenclature on this Colt was applied prior to the March 1941 Lend-Lease Act. It can be said with a pretty good certainty all the Colt's were sold by AOC by the end of 1940.

 

I believe this Colt Thompson and 950 others were most likely delivered to the US government sometime in late 1939.

 

I am not convinced about any British provenance for NO 11410 with only the horizontal fore grip and soldered 20 round magazine. These two parts could have easily been added to this parts collection to make it more attractive to a prospective buyer and/or give it some needed provenance.

 

I doubt we will ever know for certain the past history of this well worn piece of history - but it is fun to speculate.

[Annihilator]

I asked the seller a few questions: british proof marks, where does it come from, detailed pictures....

I will let you know as soon as i have some more informations

I also do not believe the magazine was found together with the gun, as the same seller is advertising british and various other Thompson mags in his online store ( he is a dealer)

[765 21D]

Hi Tom,

 

I stand corrected good Sir.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by 765 21D

[Annihilator]

Anybody know if this could be shipped to a relative in Ireland?

Sending Thompsons to Ireland was not a good idea back in the twenties, do not know if it's easier nowadays ?

[jim c 351]

FWIW,

Page 881- volume 1, of Gordons new book.

Gordon list 6 Colts Marked US Model of 1928A1.

6388

9263

11437

12907

14071---with mismatched trigger frame #13818

14181---with mismatched trigger frame #14336

#9263 was refinished by Rock Island Arsenal,----buttstock stamped RIA with crossed cannons. Mismatched gun.

Jim C

[TD.]

765 21D,

No correction necessary. You may be correct. At this point we are all speculating. Perhaps Annihilator will find out a few additional details that will help us solve this puzzle. I did note the buffer pilot does not appear to have a hole in the shaft.

 

Jim C,

I spoke to Gordon years ago when NO 14181 was on the market. He told me then he had information on 5 Colt's with the added nomenclature as discussed in this thread. I am not surprised to see the list grow. These Colt's have an uncanny ability to survive!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

@ Jim,

 

Serial #11551 as pictured above along with # 11410 makes 8 known examples of the Colt 1928 without "U.S. NAVY" and with "U.S." & "A1" stampings. No doubt there are more out there. Perhaps GH's heir will update the list in the 7th edition.

 

@ TD

 

As far as Colt TSMGs migrating into Germany, captured Allied weapons can not account for all of them. Examples of Colt TSMGs did migrate into Weimar Germany in 1932 as the result of Federal Laboratories providing middlemen who were representatives of the NSDAP. How many were sold and their serial numbers might never be known as the sale was conducted through third parties and then smuggled into Germany which was about to become the Third Reich. Such dealings with foreign countries by entities like Federal Laboratories/AOC eventually attracted the attention of Senator Gerald Nye whose 1934 committee investigated munitions manufacturers.

[TD.]

Arthur,

Great observation. David did the story about Colt Thompsons in French Service and I did the story about Colt Thompson in Swedish Service. We both wish there was enough information to do a story about Colt Thompsons in German Service. A review of Auto-Ordnance Corporation (AOC) export records from 1921 to 1925 show 615 guns exported to Hamburg, Germany (lots of 15, 50, 50 & 500) in 1923 and 1924. Those with Gordon's earlier books can look this information up in the "Exported Thompsons" chapter. I believe Gordon obtained this information from Tracie Hill as he has the original AOC record copies. That said, none of these 615 Colt's would have been marked with the U.S. and A1 nomenclature. How many more Colt's found their way to Germany after 1925, and how all these Colt's were used would make for a great story.

[dalbert]

I revise my previous opinion, and agree with TD's assessment that this may be one of the 1939 U.S. Army Colts. The serial number is in the range usually encountered with the French Colts, but unless it was marked "U.S." and "A1" after French possession, it's unlikely to have been a French Colt originally. The U.S. Army Colt Thompson sale immediately preceded the French purchase of 3000 TSMGs.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[1921A]

I have a picture of Colt #11551 marked in this manner that was taken about 1985. The gun was from a midwest NG unit if I remember correctly. I found a few of these - they were usually arsenal rebuilt, parkerized and well worn. Most had a lot of GI parts substituted during their service life and the ones I observed all had state militia or US Army provenance.

[paulsavoy]

I really hope whoever buys this 1928 Colt joins here and posts some better photos of this most interesting gun.

 

i'm bidding, and i seriously would like to buy !

i hope no serious outsiders here !

 

if winner, i promise to post all asked photos here <_>

[TD.]

paulsavoy,

Good luck with the bidding. And let us know if you win. Everyone on this Board wants this Colt in a good home!

[casper]

and what about a serious interested insider??

[paulsavoy]

and what about a serious interested insider??

No problem Casper

good luck :

I should prefer to win, but i also prefer that the 11410 will stay in the forum community

Edited April 30, 2015 by paulsavoy