Freddy Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Hello everybody,there was a discussion recently about the Colt Thompson 11410 parts that were auctioned in Germany in a big auction house. My friend in Germany bought them and asked me to post photos here for Thompson-researchers to see. In Germany, all parts except for barrel and bolt are legal - and this parts set includes all parts except for barrel, bolt and rear stock. All metal parts except for one small "Savage" marked part in the trigger group are original Colt.The general condition of the Thompson parts is much better than expected - all movable parts still move, and the surface seems to be in original condition in many parts. There is some strong pitting in some areas, while others appear unaffected: Probably, the gun was located under mud that covered large parts of the surface and kept oxygen away... Parts not covered would show corrosion... The surface is matte, apparently someone in the past used glass bead blasting or something similar on all parts to remove rust etc. But its effect is very subtle - all markings are still crisp, and tool-marks etc. are all very easily visible, not "flattened" by excessive treatment.1. Upper ReceiverThe upper receiver has all the expected markings - the "hidden serial" number matches the number on the side - 11410. Inside the receiver, we see a small inspector marking in the area under the lyman sight. As you can see, the "Model of 1921." marking was overstamped "Model of 1928" plus "U.S." + "A1". No trace of any inspector stamps or British markings.2. Lower ReceiverThe lower receiver has a matching serial number. Interestingly, all the inner parts are unmarked and therefore Colt, except for the one part marked in the picture that is responsible for Semiautomatic fire. That one part is marked "S", so that one part only is WW2 Savage production. When my friend got the parts set, all parts were blasted with glass beads and therefore matte - he disassembled the lower and slightly polished two parts already to look more correct. The whole set seems to be in the original Colt configuration; the one Savage-part was probably a replacement for a broken part?3. Lyman SightThe Lyman-Sight shows all the markings of a Colt-Era Lyman sight - bigger spacing in the "U. S. A" compared to WW2 production, etc. (See this thread for reference: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14185 ). It is corroded, but fully movable.4. Interior PartsThe bolt is missing, but the actuator is there, marked with a letter Y. The Blish-lock does not have any marking except the "Up" with an up-pointing arrow - no "S" or "AOC" on the sides. The spring guide is also unmarked, no "S" found anywhere. It has a hole to help spring-compression - but the hole is more to the rear compared to WW2 production Spring Guides. Note: The scale in the picture is metric and in centimetres, with markings for millimeters. The felt of the oiler is very brittle - seems to have been sitting underwater as well, and therefore belonging to the other parts.5. Wood partsThe wooden parts are not original Colt: The forearm is a WW2 savage forearm modified for British use with the swivel on the side, marked with the letter "S" for Savage. The rear grip only has a "V" marking. When removed from the metal, it also shows no other markings, the V is the only marking on the wood. The attachment for the foregrip again is unmarked Colt, and easily slides into the receiver slot where it's held.6. MagazineThe magazine that came with the gun has about the same level of corrosion as the rest of the parts. Especially on the sides, it shows traces of black paint. The holes are soldered shut, indicating British use. It has the correct patent-dates. When disassembled, there is no writing found in the spine. But the font with the patent dates rather matches a Maguire-era magazine than a Colt-era magazine, making it most likely one of those. For reference, on the photo, there is also a Maguire-era patent-date magazine with incorrect patent-dates and writing inside on the spine... That magazine has writing inside on the spine.I hope this post was helpful and leads to many interesting discussions :-) My friend is not using the internet often - but I will tell him of all discussions. Please excuse any mistakes in my English - it is not my native language. Edited May 24, 2015 by Freddy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog 1110 Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 As others on this board have said many times- if only this gun could talk.Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadycon Posted May 10, 2015 Report Share Posted May 10, 2015 Thank you very much for the update! GK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thank you for the friendly responses!My friend and I both wonder about the "V" marking on the wooden rear grip. It does not have any other markings anywhere, not even hidden ones under the metal. He knows that Savage-Grips often had an "S" stamp (that's hidden when the grip is mounted to the metal). Is that "V" some WW2 manufacturer's mark? Or might it be a Colt-grip with the V meaning something else, not a manufacturer's mark, maybe applied during the war for some reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Freddy,Welcome to the Board. And thank you for posting some great pictures of NO 11410. These Colt's have an uncanny ability to survive. Everyone on this Board is happy another one will be saved. I believe it is very likely NO 11410 is one of the 951 Colt Thompson's purchased by the US government on June 30, 1939. Other examples of Colt guns with the same uniform U.S. and A1 markings exist - but not many! I have never seen a "V" marking on a rear grip. It is doubtful this marking was applied during the manufacturing process. However, this grip may be original to the gun. Perhaps another member can comment on the "V" marking and the shape of the grip. I find the hole in the buffer pilot very interesting. I believe all of the Colt's 1928 buffer pilots were manufactured without a hole at the end of the shaft. My belief is based on how the buffer pilots on the early Savage guns were manufactured without buffer pilots. Yet a few examples of buffer pilots from Colt guns do exist. Could you post additional pictures of this buffer pilot without the spring and disk showing all angles? I remember reading somewhere about the "Y" marking on the rear of a 1928 actuator, probably on this Board. Perhaps another member can shed some light on this. I would like to see a clear picture of the cocking ball or knob. Can you post a picture showing a close-up of both sides of the cocking knob. NO 11410 appears to be in much better shape than the auction pictures depicted. Remember, when it was sold by Auto-Ordnance Corporation, it shipped with a beautiful blue finish. That is how I would want to restore it. Please keep us informed about what happens to NO 11410. It is certainly a nice piece of history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 A big thanks to Bug for finding the thread concerning the "Y" marked one-piece 1928 actuators found in Colt guns. It appears we have another one in NO 11410. Freddy, I am sure you will find the information in the below thread on point. http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16222 All good stuff!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thank you very much for the very nice and thorough reply! That thread is very, very interesting!I just uploaded more pictures to the initial post - close ups of the actuator, buffer pilot and shape of the rear grip... I hope you'll find them interesting, especially the buffer pilot...My friend intends to keep the parts the way they are for the moment, not restore their finish, as he says "their history should be visible, they won't look pristine again, it might end up looking wrong"... But what's your opinion? That's an interesting point - would you suggest to restore them or keep them as they are? If re-bluing, only re-blue the "flat" areas, leaving the corrosion metallic to look more "real", or re-blue the whole thing...? I will print and translate your responses for him, he is excited already about the information on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurencen Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 only my opinion but I would not restore or try to clean the rust, the pitting is deep and would require a lot of metal removal, best option if it was me is leave as found, got a history and this is how it ended up, I would get a aluminum barrel made for show and leave the bright 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 Thanks!By the way, as I understand, the original configuration of this Colt 1928A1 as acquired by the US army would have had a (Colt era) compensator + horizontal foregrip (with sling swivel)? Also, would it have had a Remington buttstock (with Anchor mark) equipped with a sling swivel? Would that be correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 @ Freddy, Could you post a detailed photo of the front of the pilot and provide the pilot's length? You may have another example of the Colt spring pilot that has the hole. For comparison see close up of Chuck's Colt Navy pilot sans hole, my Colt Navy pilot with hole and Melvin's Colt Navy pilot with hole. The first two do not have the 45 degree radius front while Melvin's does. Other than that all three are unmarked and in the white. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Freddy,This is the only place you will find this type of minutia involving the Colt Thompson. Many of the Board members have been studying this gun for many years. Thank you for the additional pictures. Regarding your questions, yes, this Colt would have been originally equipped with a Colt era Cutts compensator. If it is one of the 951 Thompson guns purchased by the US government, it most likely had a what is referred to as a Type 2 compensator. A horizontal fore grip with sling swivels would also be correct, most likely one of later designs for both the horizontal fore grip and swivels (no rounded front on the grip or off-set swivels). A review of the Swedish Colt's as pictured in The Ultimate Thompson Book would probably be a good guide for these two items. The butt stock would have been all Colt's with the added sling swivel. Arthur, Thanks for sharing this information. I believe you, gijive and Melvin started this topic years ago. Is there anyway you could take and post a better picture of the end of your 28 Navy buffer pilot? I took the liberty of cropping and posting a picture, below, of the buffer pilot from NO 11410. It appears to me the hole in the shaft is in a slightly different position than the two known examples posted by Arthur, above. If true, this is an indication this modification was performed on each buffer pilot individually - and not during production or by Colt's. All comments and thoughts welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) TD, Arthur,Thanks a lot! It feels good that posting pictures brings so many interesting discussions, and might even help Thompson-research. Thanks for being so generous in sharing your knowledge! I uploaded a few more pictures to the intital post: The front end of the buffer pilot, plus the buffer-pilot next to a (metric) scale. Also, the actuator-knob from top - so you now have close-ups of both sides plus the top. (I always upload new pics to the intial post, so whoever reads this post will find all pictures immediately)One interesting fact about the buffer pilot: It is in very good condition, still original "in the white". It appears that because there was little corrosion, it had not been treated with glass bead blasting. In the holes (front/rear plus the one for holding the spring compressed) my friend found dried mud while cleaning, indicating that it has been underwater with the rest of the parts and is original to the other parts. In the hole for the spring-compression tool the dried mud indicates that it was drilled before the parts were put underwater - meaning decades ago... The buffer disc is quite brittle and slightly shrunk, so very likely also original to the other parts...One question concerning this, as I always wondered: I know most original Colt 1928 buffer pilots didn't have the hole; how was the spring installed in the receiver then? How was it supposed to be done, is there information in manuals about it? It appears to me almost impossible to install it without a tool to compress the spring on the buffer pilot...By the way, TD, your book on the British Tommy-Guns is highly informative and well-done! I read it entirely... A good read! Edited May 12, 2015 by Freddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 @ TD, Have not seen pilot hole placement as far to the edge on other Colt Navy 1928 pilots (or WWII 1928 pilots) as it is on mine. Was this a Colt factory application when the NAVY MODEL was introduced? No. Could AOC have drilled the hole in the 1930's? Quite possibly. Could a LEO or the U.S. military take the initiative to do the alteration in the 1930's? Sure. @ Freddy,Thanks for the additional pics. It would appear that the hole in your pilot also dates back to the 1930's. Many Colt Navy and MODEL 1928 owners share your frustration regarding replacement of the pilot/sprig during assembly. I never use the tool in the hole to facilitate assembly. For some reason, my pilot/spring cooperates when compressing and then sliding into the actuator and then into the back of the receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 By the way, TD, in the other thread on 11410, you voice doubts on the British provenance, as it's only established by foregrip and magazine which could have been switched.It makes me wonder: There are no inspector stamps outside on the receiver - neither British ones, nor the "JHB" which I read is typical of most Colt Thompsons. What could that mean? It is strange - wouldn't it have gotten at least some kind of acceptance-stamping from the US-army when it was purchased? My friend and I searched it thoroughly - there are no markings on the receiver except for those pictured (and the Thompson logo on top which we didn't photograph as it's a standard-marking)... But we are no experts on US military acceptance stamps.@ Arthur, I found this topic http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6809 where you write about the missing JHB stamp on late Colt Thompsons. Your writing makes a lot of sense. Still, it puzzles both my friend and me how a military used Thompson has no military acceptance/inspector stamp of any kind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Arthur,I don't think AOC modified or improved the 1928 buffer pilot after it was introduced with the addition of the hole at the end of the shaft. My reason is simple. The buffer pilots on the early Savage Thompsons were originally manufactured without a hole in the shaft. If this improvement would have been noticed or the modification performed by AOC in the 1930's, I believe the early Savage buffer pilots would have had the hole in the shaft. I discuss this in detail on pages 136 -138 of my book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. What I did not include in the book was a copy of the Canadian 1928 buffer pilot modification sheet. This can be found on Page 389 of The Ultimate Thompson Book. Having some experience with the 1928 buffer pilot and spring, I understand the difficulty novices to the gun world would have had when trying to re-assemble the Thompson gun after cleaning. Your 1928 Navy is one in a million (or one in 15,000 if it is easy to re-assemble without the tool. Thanks for the improved pictures of your buffer pilot. Freddy,The absence of the JHB marking is noteworthy but not that unusual to those that frequent this Board. Arthur's comments on the thread you referenced sums up the issue nicely. The number of Colt Thompson's in British service during World War II were so very few as to be insignificant. I cover this topic in my book. I believe the U.S. Marines were the first U.S. military organization to purchase the Thompson gun in any quantity. I don't believe there were any military acceptance markings applied when these early Colt Thompson guns were purchased and placed in service. Perhaps the reason is these Thompson guns were purchased "off the shelf" so the military knew exactly what they were purchasing. If NO 11410 is one of the 951 Thompson guns purchased by the U.S. government in 1939 (and this is not a proven fact only something I believe is highly likely), then the addition of the U.S. and A1 markings may be all the military markings that were required at the time. Remember, these guns were "off the shelf" too. Military acceptance marks for the Thompson gun really come into play when the World War II production began in 1940 (Savage Arms) and 1941 (Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport) with military inspectors stationed at the respective factories. All good stuff!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 @ TD, Regarding the British proof marked TSMGs that never left the continental U.S., did you establish conclusively whether British inspectors evaluated TSMGs in Utica, New York/Bridgeport, Connecticut before they arrived in the U.K.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Freddy, Thank you for the kind words about my book. As you see in the Acknowledgements section, Board member Mk VII played a big roll in making this book possible. Arthur,Thank you for the updated pictures. The 1928 Colt era buffer pilots are an interesting piece of Thompson history. I do cover the British inspection process for the Thompson gun during World War II. I don't think anything regarding the Thompson gun is conclusive, however, I have provided a lot more information - all documented - than was previously known. This information can be found in Chapter 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Very interesting... I am really impressed of how well you analyse all the details, it's a pleasure to read and get a deep understanding about the topic!One idea: I saw in the other thread that there are more 1928a1 marked Colt Thompsons around. It would be interesting if the owners of other surviving examples could post pictures of their buffer pilots... I currently speculate that - if the 951 guns were bought at once, the buffer pilots might also have been drilled by the army all in the same way at a later point in time, with the hole the same distance from the tip on all of them... What do you think about that? @TD: just re-read your chapter from the book about the buffer pilot, very interesting...@TD: I agree with your theory, it sounds most likely that 11410 was purchased in 1939 by the US government as one of 951 Thompsons. Your explanation on the lack of acceptance stamps sounds very logical. I still wonder about the British modified foregrip, though... I know it might have been added after finding the parts: Still, would it be a possibility it be that 11410 was acquired by the British without placing any acceptance/proof stamp on it? Or maybe the grip was swapped "in the field"? I guess that part always has to remain uncertain, as we don't know how the parts were found...Let me speculate a bit about the history of 11410: It appears that 11410 saw wartime use, because in the trigger group we find one Savage-part which very likely would have been a replacement of a broken Colt part... Part breaking = the gun saw use. The part would have broken at a time when Savage-spares were available, i.e. WW2. The wooden rear grip might be a Colt one that was stamped with a "V" for whatever reason after it left AO, probably during military use; maybe some board-member can shed light on this issue? I guess the "V" could be a very interesting element, because if the rear grip is original Colt, it could indicate which army used 11410 if the V turns out to be a known marking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Freddy, Although this adds no value to the discussion, there are other members much more versed in Colt nuances than I, I have to commend you on your English. It is perfect considering a second language. Thanks for sharing this guns story and connecting the owner to the forum. It's great that you share an interest in the history and help connect the board and the owner as the "middle man" Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Ron,thank you very much! That compliment on my English coming from a native speaker means a lot to me - I watch a lot of English-language films and like reading English-language books, that keeps me trained...My friend is also very glad to have found this message-board. He speaks little English and doesn't use a computer much - but we both share an interest for the same topic. In fact, I would have bought the parts myself if I'd have had the money - but I'm glad he has them as they are in good hands with him and he likes to share information about them... And the discussion is highly interesting for me, too. Edited May 13, 2015 by Freddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 @ Freddy, Are you familiar with the SAT1 / ORF show "Kommissar Rex"? It's my Deutscher Schaferhund's favorite show. For some inexplicable reason it moved to Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 @Arthur Yes, I do know that show, I watched it in the 90s, if I remember correctly. I like that! Is that your Schaeferhund in your board picture? Looks great!@All: My friend wants to display the parts by attaching them disassembled on a board (not in a way that damages them in any way, easily removable). He wonders if you have different ideas what he could do with the parts? Attach dummy parts to make it look "complete" (barrel and bolt are not allowed in Germany, but non-functional dummy parts would work) plus a British converted stock, or leave them as they are, incomplete (and "honest", not adding anything non-Colt)? Would you refinish them? laurencen made a good point about not refinishing them and my friend agrees, but maybe others on the board have different opinions, all opinions are appreciated. This is a truly great discussion platform, we are glad to have found it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurencen Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Freddy if it were me I would machine a bar of aluminum the shape of a barrel, same for a dummy bolt, assemble and display as found, would be a piece of history you can hold and admire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
765 21D Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi Freddy, In my opinion your friend should get a dummy barrel and bolt made and he should probably use a 1928 butt as an original Colt/Remington made butt will not be cheap. I would not refinish the metal at all. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSU Tiger Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 This is most interesting. If I remember correctly, didn't the US Army designate the Thompson as "M1928A1" to differ from the US Navy's 1928 even though there was really no difference in the two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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