Bob Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Nice job Tom!Makes me want to take one my M1A1's stick a 1928 barrel on it and get it engraved :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Bob,I appreciate the kind words about my story on The NAC Thompson Guns. It is my hope both parts of this story will provide a source of information Thompson enthusiasts can utilize to have a basic understanding of this Thompson variation - and the history behind its existence. The story about the engraved M1A1 NAC Thompson should appear in Part 2 of the story. I look forward to your thoughts when you have the opportunity to read the complete story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Looking forward to part two! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Now, to find the article. Any chance of a link? I own a NAC M1928A1 and have heard theories about it over the years that vary pretty widely. The only things I know for certain is that the serial numbers match and the finish is original Savage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Part One of the NAC story is in SAR magazine (Small Arms Review), Volume 20, NO 6. I assume Part Two will be in the next issue but I am not certain of that. Specific information about your NAC Thompson will be in Part Two but you really need to read the entire story to understand the history of this Thompson variation. The below link will take you to the start of the story. A quick search of the website will show how to subscribe or purchase individual issues. https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=3372 You are the reason I wrote this story, i.e., "...heard theories about it over the years that vary pretty widely." This story includes new information, compiles all known (documented) information, and provides the readers and owners of NAC Thompsons an authoritative place to turn when questions arise about their particular NAC Thompson. Given all the mis-information about this variation, every NAC owner will want a hard copy of this story in their collection. If you decide to obtain the story, let me know me your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Excellent job Tom, Thanks! NIce to see it published! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAR-Ross Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Good morning gentlemen, I have unlocked Mr. Davis's article mention in this post- you all can enjoy the full contents of the article without having a subscription to SAR. I will also unlock the next article in this series when we make it available online. Ross HermanSmall Arms Review magazinewww.smallarmsreview.com 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnshooter Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Good morning gentlemen, I have unlocked Mr. Davis's article mention in this post- you all can enjoy the full contents of the article without having a subscription to SAR. I will also unlock the next article in this series when we make it available online. Ross Herman Small Arms Review magazine www.smallarmsreview.comRoss, THANK YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Good morning gentlemen, I have unlocked Mr. Davis's article mention in this post- you all can enjoy the full contents of the article without having a subscription to SAR. I will also unlock the next article in this series when we make it available online. Ross HermanSmall Arms Review magazinewww.smallarmsreview.com@Ross Much obliged for making the information readily available to this forum where the largest number of TSMG enthusiasts gather. Much easier to discuss the topic when everyone has access to the article in real time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Part One of the NAC story is in SAR magazine (Small Arms Review), Volume 20, NO 6. I assume Part Two will be in the next issue but I am not certain of that. Specific information about your NAC Thompson will be in Part Two but you really need to read the entire story to understand the history of this Thompson variation. The below link will take you to the start of the story. A quick search of the website will show how to subscribe or purchase individual issues. https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=3372 Gotta love this passage from your article: Some self-described Thompson purists take issue with the statement that Numrich Arms manufactured Thompson guns. They claim all that happened was an assembly of already manufactured receivers and parts to create guns to sell in the marketplace. However, it has long been recognized that assembling parts into a complete working unit is by definition manufacturing, including the U.S. legal definition. All evidence found today indicates Numrich Arms sold complete working products, not bare receivers. Would it be presumptuous of me to see a reference to my posts on this board? See the following thread: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6142&hl=%2Bnumrich+%2Bmanufacturing&do=findComment&comment=55169 Arthur Fliegenheimer, on 04 May 2006 - 20:08, said: Even car manufacturers make the distinction between "manufacturing" and "assembling." Nissan states that some of its automobiles are manufactured in Smyrna, Georgia, and assembled in Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Arthur Fliegenheimer, on 04 May 2006 - 20:08, said: Even car manufacturers make the distinction between "manufacturing" and "assembling." Nissan states that some of its automobiles are manufactured in Smyrna, Georgia, and assembled in Mexico. Arthur, Manufacturing is a process that may or may not include assembly, depending upon in which phase of the manufacturing process one participates. We discussed this a decade ago. Nissan manufactures in Smyrna, TN, not Smyrna, GA. I have driven by the plant many times. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Arthur Fliegenheimer, on 04 May 2006 - 20:08, said: Even car manufacturers make the distinction between "manufacturing" and "assembling." Nissan states that some of its automobiles are manufactured in Smyrna, Georgia, and assembled in Mexico. Arthur, Manufacturing is a process that may or may not include assembly, depending upon in which phase of the manufacturing process one participates. We discussed this a decade ago. Nissan manufactures in Smyrna, TN, not Smyrna, GA. I have driven by the plant many times. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Dave, Correct. But Numrich only did assembly. You don't have to assemble to be doing manufacturing, but you do have to create raw materials to be doing manufacturing. "Since 1997, Nissan’s powertrain plant in Decherd, Tenn. has been building reliable, high-quality engines while providing secure and well-paying jobs for residents of Franklin County and the surrounding area. Today, the facility and its more than 1,400 employees provide engines for all Nissan and Infiniti vehicles built at the company’s vehicle assembly plants in Smyrna, Tenn. and Canton, Miss. In 2013, the plant began supplying electric motors to support U.S. production of the all-electric Nissan LEAF". Nissan assembles autos at their Smyrna, Tennessee plant. The building is done at Decherd, Tennessee. Nissan maintains 2 assembly plants in Mexico: Aguascalientes producing:Nissan Sentra,Tsuru andTsubame wagonCuernavaca producingLucino (2000X)Tsurupick-ups Again, the only relevance to Tom's article is that readers would be misinformed if they believed Numrich was manufacturing smg receivers and frames for TSMGs. Numrich never converted raw material steel into a finished product using machines, nor did he design any component in his Mamaroneck, New York. assembly location. Is it your contention that WWII armorers in the field were "manufacturing" TSMG when they were rebuilding them? Edited June 4, 2016 by dalbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Arthur, You project an amusing perception of manufacturing, however, I believe your understanding is greater than you let on. The reality of it does not fit your desired mold in the case of Numrich. Again, we have discussed this previously. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anjong-ni Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Interesting discussion.For the purposes of taxes and tariffs, Smyrna Nissans, Marysville Hondas and San Antonio Toyotas, among other imported nameplates "assembled" here,are considered by Our Government to be "Domestic cars", with over 75% of their parts "manufactured" here.Hope that cleared it up....Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 None of my readers will be misinformed about assembling and manufacturing. I call it what it is; they are welcome to call it something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Great article, and I very much appreciate the opportunity to read the whole thing. I became interested in the NAC guns when I acquired my own NAC serial suffix Savage M1928A1, S-332xxxNAC. (I'm not being cagey with the serial number; I just don't remember offhand what it is!) The gun is apparently a nearly new all-original example with matching serial numbers and US, RLB, GEG, and ordnance bomb markings. It was purchased at retail from a sporting goods store in Chicago in the early 1950s by the gent that I bought it from. There are no defaced markings and it would seem to have no law enforcement history. I'm certainly hoping that future articles will touch upon this variation. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Don't forget the NAC-Colt guns as well.Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted June 4, 2016 Report Share Posted June 4, 2016 Arthur Fliegenheimer, on 04 May 2006 - 20:08, said: Even car manufacturers make the distinction between "manufacturing" and "assembling." Nissan states that some of its automobiles are manufactured in Smyrna, Georgia, and assembled in Mexico. Arthur, Manufacturing is a process that may or may not include assembly, depending upon in which phase of the manufacturing process one participates. We discussed this a decade ago. Nissan manufactures in Smyrna, TN, not Smyrna, GA. I have driven by the plant many times. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Dave, Correct. But Numrich only did assembly. You don't have to assemble to be doing manufacturing, but you do have to create raw materials to be doing manufacturing. "Since 1997, Nissans powertrain plant in Decherd, Tenn. has been building reliable, high-quality engines while providing secure and well-paying jobs for residents of Franklin County and the surrounding area. Today, the facility and its more than 1,400 employees provide engines for all Nissan and Infiniti vehicles built at the companys vehicle assembly plants in Smyrna, Tenn. and Canton, Miss. In 2013, the plant began supplying electric motors to support U.S. production of the all-electric Nissan LEAF". Nissan assembles autos at their Smyrna, Tennessee plant. The building is done at Decherd, Tennessee. Nissan maintains 2 assembly plants in Mexico: Aguascalientes producing:Nissan Sentra,Tsuru andTsubame wagonCuernavaca producingLucino (2000X)Tsurupick-ups Again, the only relevance to Tom's article is that readers would be misinformed if they believed Numrich was manufacturing smg receivers and frames for TSMGs. Numrich never converted raw material steel into a finished product using machines, nor did he design any component in his Mamaroneck, New York. assembly location. Is it your contention that WWII armorers in the field were "manufacturing" TSMG when they were rebuilding them?While I've not toured Decherd yet, I've toured many an engine plant for all sizes of vehicles. Few engines are manufactured any more by the OEMs. A plant may machine blocks or heads but they assemble the components shipped in by suppliers. The block and head casting is usually done by a supplier in a low cost country the steel or iron is melted by a large supplier. I think Henry Ford was the last manufacturer. He even grew the rubber trees in Brazil for fear he could not trust Firestone. If your assertion is that Nissan manufactures cars in the US, then yes WWII armorers were manufacturing Thompsons, especially when assembling all the parts into a lower frame. It's the same thing....somebody produces all the parts and the armorer assembled them. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 Arthur Fliegenheimer, on 04 May 2006 - 20:08, said: Even car manufacturers make the distinction between "manufacturing" and "assembling." Nissan states that some of its automobiles are manufactured in Smyrna, Georgia, and assembled in Mexico. Arthur, Manufacturing is a process that may or may not include assembly, depending upon in which phase of the manufacturing process one participates. We discussed this a decade ago. Nissan manufactures in Smyrna, TN, not Smyrna, GA. I have driven by the plant many times. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Dave, Correct. But Numrich only did assembly. You don't have to assemble to be doing manufacturing, but you do have to create raw materials to be doing manufacturing. "Since 1997, Nissans powertrain plant in Decherd, Tenn. has been building reliable, high-quality engines while providing secure and well-paying jobs for residents of Franklin County and the surrounding area. Today, the facility and its more than 1,400 employees provide engines for all Nissan and Infiniti vehicles built at the companys vehicle assembly plants in Smyrna, Tenn. and Canton, Miss. In 2013, the plant began supplying electric motors to support U.S. production of the all-electric Nissan LEAF". Nissan assembles autos at their Smyrna, Tennessee plant. The building is done at Decherd, Tennessee. Nissan maintains 2 assembly plants in Mexico: Aguascalientes producing:Nissan Sentra,Tsuru andTsubame wagonCuernavaca producingLucino (2000X)Tsurupick-ups Again, the only relevance to Tom's article is that readers would be misinformed if they believed Numrich was manufacturing smg receivers and frames for TSMGs. Numrich never converted raw material steel into a finished product using machines, nor did he design any component in his Mamaroneck, New York. assembly location. Is it your contention that WWII armorers in the field were "manufacturing" TSMG when they were rebuilding them?It's the same thing....somebody produces all the parts and the armorer assembled them. Ron And George Numrich was replicating what the WWII armorers did by assembling functional TSMGs but for a civilian market. The WWII armorers had a continuous supply of TSMG parts while Numrich had a finite amount of parts he scrounged from the crates he purchased in 1951. Colt/Savage/AOC were the OEM who manufactured receivers and frames, farmed out other components, and then assembled complete TSMGs. Surely automobile factories in the 1950's, the same era Numrich assembled TSMGs, were the OEM of their engines if not their transmissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 Thanks for unlocking the article. I'm going to save a pdf of it and purchase a copy to keep on the shelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Gun collectors place value on guns depending on how the history of the gun excites their imagination. In general, the NAC guns were pieced together from random crated parts by a gun parts vendor and sold to commercial customers, a decade or so after production ended. That's not an exciting history and the guns do not smack of authenticity and originality. The NAC guns exist as a fluke because some parts were sold to a parts vendor instead of sold as scrap metal. That's not good or bad, it just is what it is. They exist as a footnote of history. I think the guns are neat and it's a neat story, I enjoyed the article. Gun collectors are going to vote with their dollar bills about how that they feel about that history compared to the Colt and WWII production runs. That valuation is not going to be changed by a sematic argument over the word "manufacture." Edited June 6, 2016 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Buzz,Thank you for taking the time to read my story. There is a little more to the story than you outline. May I suggest you read pages 453 through 470 in The Ultimate Thompson Book (TUTB) to understand fully how the Thompson gun, a corporate product, was sold by Maguire Industries and went through several owners before being purchased by George Numrich in 1951. This was not a story about how some parts were sold instead of being scrapped. If that would have happened, the story of the Thompson gun would have ended in 1944. The complete product was sold and remained intact when purchased by Numrich. What Numrich created was another variation of the Thompson gun in its succession from one owner to another. This story digs much deeper than what is presented in TUTB in that many examples of actual guns are cited. The story was written to give owners of the NAC guns a complete understanding of the history behind their Thompson. Given today's prices of registered machine guns this needs to be known, especially by prospective purchasers. One can only guess the number of NAC Thompsons misrepresented to prospective buyers over the years. What I have presented is a solid authority of this unique Thompson variation. The second part of the story will cover the remaining variations and provide more insight into how these guns came to exist. As an aside, the service to Thompson collectors and enthusiasts by George Numrich cannot be overstated. The Blish pistol and many of the Model of 1919's on display at the NRA Convention in Louisville this year were originally sold by George Numrich after he purchased the Thompson assets. His donation of several early prototypes to the United States Military Academy at West Point is well known. Can you imagine the void that would have been created if all of these early guns would have been scrapped. I do agree the NAC Thompsons are not Colt era or World War II production guns. They are parts guns and have been held in low esteem by many collectors over the years. I personally do not think they should be valued in the same price range as Colt or WWII production guns. Unfortunately, the 1986 machine gun ban changed all the rules regarding valuation. That said, some of the NAC guns have been professionally refinished and/or remanufactured and are simply beautiful. Your spot-on regarding the semantics of the word "manufacture." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG08 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 my NAC gun is pictured in the book - it is an original matching WWII 1928A1 Savage, some early parts - with typical arsenal stampings and "NAC" after the SN. Gives it a whole new slot in the "collector" realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) TD, I bring exactly zero knowledge of Thompson history to the table. You guys know 100 times what I do about that. I enjoyed your article a lot, I can see that you are very dedicated to digging down to the bedrock and finding the original historical facts. That kind of dedication to fact finding is pure gold compared to the fluff that shows up in most gun magazines. I think the NAC guns are an ideal collector gun, they have an interesting history, they're made from original parts, and they can be shot without too much worry about spoiling them. If the purist snobby types look down their nose at them, that's foolish of them. The NAC guns are a legitimate part of the Thompson history. My remarks in my previous post were supposed to be about how gun collectors put value on guns. Collectors of historic artifacts assign value based on how interesting and unique and historically important the artifact is to them. The hardcore collectors are just simply not going to think of NAC guns as the same as original production guns. But here we have a thread with guys wrangling back and forth about how Nissan puts cars together. No matter how that argument comes out, it makes no difference because collector passion is based on gut feelings and not based on legal definitions. Edited June 6, 2016 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Supplimental information on Champlin Fighter Museum firearm collection. The dissposition of NAC-2 after museum closed was that it sold at the 2000 Champlin auction featuring the NFA weapons Champlin purchased from Curtis Earl. NAC-15 Colt TSMG was also part of the Champlin Fighter Museum collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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