Gangster Gun, Serial # Revealed !

[ppgcowboy]

We were all saddened when Nelson died in the plane crash, but the song was great. Bye bye miss American pie.

[OCM]

You must be a Youngin' , PPGCowboy, song was about 50s singers, Buddy Holly, Ritchie Vallen and The Big Bopper. But yes Rick Nelson did lose his life in a DC-3 plane crash on tour also.

And, Colt21a, Mr. Dillinger did get a free plane ride home from Tucson, in a Ford Tri-motor airplane with American Airlines. And yes I have tracked the whereabouts the very plane is now- China ( seriously),

Sorry Colt Chopper way of track again-

 

OCM

Edited October 16, 2017 by OCM

[ppgcowboy]

Not sure why, I thought he was in that fateful plane of song. My father jumped out of tri-motors as a smoke jumper.

[Colt Chopper]

So much has surfaced in the past week since receiving the FOIA that I don't know where to start. First of all I want to say "Thank You" to all that have helped and contributed, TD, SIG, GI JIVE, OCM and I'm sure I'm forgetting others right now.

We knew from the original barrel removal research that it was one of five Thompson's purchased by Nelson, in an arrangement with Lebman in September of 1933, then separately shipped in October 33 to

Joseph Bennett's home (brother-in-law of Tommy Carroll) on 16th street in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

The number's were, 1709, 5487, 6141, 6315 and 7579.

We new one was lost at the Bennett's home in an attempt to arrest Tommy Carroll on Nov. 11, 1933, number unknown, one was lost at the Lincoln Court Apartments shoot out in St Paul, left in VanMeter's car, number unknown, and two Thompson's # 6141 and # 6315 were lost at Little Bohemia, Leaving one mystery gun, thinking this had to be mine. But I was mistaken.

 

FOIA.pdf

[Bridgeport28A1]

So much has surfaced in the past week since receiving the FOIA that I don't know where to start. First of all I want to say "Thank You" to all that have helped and contributed, TD, SIG, GI JIVE, OCM and I'm sure I'm forgetting others right now.

We knew from the original barrel removal research that it was one of five Thompson's purchased by Nelson, in an arrangement with Lebman in September of 1933, then separately shipped in October 33 to

Joseph Bennett's home (brother-in-law of Tommy Carroll) on 16th street in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

The number's were, 1709, 5487, 6141, 6315 and 7579.

We new one was lost at the Bennett's home in an attempt to arrest Tommy Carroll on Nov. 11, 1933, number unknown, one was lost at the Lincoln Court Apartments shoot out in St Paul, left in VanMeter's car, number unknown, and two Thompson's # 6141 and # 6315 were lost at Little Bohemia, Leaving one mystery gun, thinking this had to be mine. But I was mistaken.

 

ATF leaving the Nov 11, 1933 date, Tommy Carroll's name and the Waterloo Iowa information on the Form and not being redacted was a game changer. I'll have to drive by Joseph Bennet's house after looking up the address in Public Enemies to see if the house is still standing.

 

Congratulations Jack

Edited October 19, 2017 by Bridgeport28A1

[Colt Chopper]

Here is the info from Lebman's deposition.

 

33.pdf

[OCM]

CC's Thompson, # 5487 was one of the Nelson guns found with Tommy Carroll at the Bennett address. Three weeks prior, Nelson, Carroll, Van Meter and a guy named Fischer showed up at the Brainard , MN bank with three Thompsons. On departure, depending on which story you read, Nelson & Carroll fired the Thompsons all over the place to basically scare people away, a normal Nelson way. ( see Mason City bank robbery ).

Van Meter was outside as a lookout, with a Thompson in a picnic basket, that the Brainerd historical society still has.

Colt Chopper's Thompson was one of the Nelson Thompsons, used by either Carroll or Nelson at the bank to shoot the hell outta things.

Remember the Nelson Thompsons had the numbers removed by Lebman. Two of these recovered at the Little Bo battle, 6141 & 6315, possibly one Carroll had and one Nelson had, both with numbers removed. That's three Nelson guns.

Van Meter left one in the St Paul shootout , in his car that has been destroyed by the MN police dept- # 4. # 1709 or #7579.

So, the only known Baby Face Nelson Nelson gun in private hands is the Colt Chopper Thompson # 5487, which was used/fired at the Brainerd bank robbery.

The mystery is either 1709 or 7579 was destroyed, so one has vanished- It would be a Thompson with the numbers removed like Colt Chopper's gun.

 

Do da Do da ( music from Outer Limits)

 

Be shout out for CC . Guy has all the luck !

 

 

OCM

[thirtyround]

Well obviously this gun has turned out to be a good investment. Cant help it.... Gotta ask or at least hypothesize.... where would one begin to range the value of this one of a kind historical gun? I almost know what you're thinking.

[USMC0802]

No matter who you are or what you have, there's always someone out there with cooler guns.

 

...unless you're Colt Chopper. Then no one has cooler guns.

 

Congratulations, and as others have said, truly incredible. I love it.

[HANS]

So much has surfaced in the past week since receiving the FOIA that I don't know where to start. First of all I want to say "Thank You" to all that have helped and contributed, TD, SIG, GI JIVE, OCM and I'm sure I'm forgetting others right now.

We knew from the original barrel removal research that it was one of five Thompson's purchased by Nelson, in an arrangement with Lebman in September of 1933, then separately shipped in October 33 to

Joseph Bennett's home (brother-in-law of Tommy Carroll) on 16th street in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

The number's were, 1709, 5487, 6141, 6315 and 7579.

We new one was lost at the Bennett's home in an attempt to arrest Tommy Carroll on Nov. 11, 1933, number unknown, one was lost at the Lincoln Court Apartments shoot out in St Paul, left in VanMeter's car, number unknown, and two Thompson's # 6141 and # 6315 were lost at Little Bohemia, Leaving one mystery gun, thinking this had to be mine. But I was mistaken.

 

 

Hah. Called it over a year ago when we mailed I've always thought Carroll's gun was the most likely contender, since Van Meter's was seized by the FBI (presumably they still have it) and Nelson's largish arsenal has disappeared without trace.

 

Great that we now have confirmation, congrats!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited October 20, 2017 by HANS

[OCM]

H-

CC had contacted the St Paul police & according to them they destroyed all the Thompson from back then, which would be Van's Thompson. We just don't know if it was 1709 or 7579 they destroyed. That leaves one of the Nelson collection still missing.

The Barrington Thompson ?

[Bridgeport28A1]

The IRS registration form has a Hennepin County Notary Public. Minneapolis is located in Hennepin County where St. Paul is located in Ramsey County. But you guys probably knew that already.

 

Minneapolis PD did have some M2 Carbine that made it out of the PD. St.Paul PD used to display a Savage 1928/28A1 at their headquarters, I don't know if they still do.

 

Solid gangster provenance Colt Thompson still located at the South St. Paul PD. Maybe Jack can "spring" that Thompson out of the PD. Not sure what form it is registered on other then the F.B.I. returned it to the PD after it's recovery.

[ghostsoldier]

Congrats to CC for owning a true one of a kind historical weapon.

 

H-

CC had contacted the St Paul police & according to them they destroyed all the Thompson from back then, which would be Van's Thompson. We just don't know if it was 1709 or 7579 they destroyed. That leaves one of the Nelson collection still missing.

The Barrington Thompson ?

That was my next question...so, the whereabouts of the Barrington Thompson is still unconfirmed?

 

Rob

[OCM]

As far as I know, it is. One problem if it's in private hands it would of had to be registered or I guess re- identified by the IRS. All 5 of the Nelson guys had the numbers removed by Lebman as not to trace them. I don't know if it's possible to trace all the weapons/Thompsons re-stamped by the IRS. ????

CC still has some history to follow on the Nelson gun, going back to the bank that Nelson robbed in Brainerd, to the present.

Gijive dug up that part of the story- Interesting things to follow.

The Nelson gun is completely secure in it's history of ownership with CC.

 

Forgot, if one did pop up, Barrington or Wherever, do what CC did pull the barrel - see if it 1709 or 7579. That would be a lightening strikes twice moment.

 

 

OCM

Edited October 20, 2017 by OCM

[gijive]

 

So much has surfaced in the past week since receiving the FOIA that I don't know where to start. First of all I want to say "Thank You" to all that have helped and contributed, TD, SIG, GI JIVE, OCM and I'm sure I'm forgetting others right now.

We knew from the original barrel removal research that it was one of five Thompson's purchased by Nelson, in an arrangement with Lebman in September of 1933, then separately shipped in October 33 to

Joseph Bennett's home (brother-in-law of Tommy Carroll) on 16th street in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

The number's were, 1709, 5487, 6141, 6315 and 7579.

We new one was lost at the Bennett's home in an attempt to arrest Tommy Carroll on Nov. 11, 1933, number unknown, one was lost at the Lincoln Court Apartments shoot out in St Paul, left in VanMeter's car, number unknown, and two Thompson's # 6141 and # 6315 were lost at Little Bohemia, Leaving one mystery gun, thinking this had to be mine. But I was mistaken.

 

 

Hah. Called it over a year ago when we mailed I've always thought Carroll's gun was the most likely contender, since Van Meter's was seized by the FBI (presumably they still have it) and Nelson's largish arsenal has disappeared without trace.

 

Great that we now have confirmation, congrats!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Hans,

I agree with you on that. I always thought that might be the most likely candidate, as well. I never thought it was one of the guns where the Feds were involved. It would have gone to Washington to the FBI Lab to have the numbers "raised" and it would never have seen the light of day again. I also never considered it to be the missing gun from Barrington, there would have been no way to ever prove that. If that gun still exists and hasn't been destroyed by someone over the years, it is buried in some attic or basement and its current owner doesn't know its origin.

[OCM]

There is still the possibility the last Thompson was taken by the local Sheriff at the Little Bo raid, but like the Barrington Thompson hard to find, unless someone pops up with a Thompson with numbers removed. That would drop in the same thing where CC pulled the barrel off the Nelson/Carroll Thompson.

Pure luck.

The FOIA paper sure opened it up for CC . Nothing surprises me anymore.

Some family in Wilamete may have a Monitor & Thompson in the basement, old gangster guns - ?

Fun American history-

[Merry Ploughboy]

There is still the possibility the last Thompson was taken by the local Sheriff at the Little Bo raid, but like the Barrington Thompson hard to find, unless someone pops up with a Thompson with numbers removed. That would drop in the same thing where CC pulled the barrel off the Nelson/Carroll Thompson.

Pure luck.

The FOIA paper sure opened it up for CC . Nothing surprises me anymore.

Some family in Wilamete may have a Monitor & Thompson in the basement, old gangster guns - ?

Fun American history-

 

I guess you haven't read "G-Man" by Stephen Hunter. I'm not going to post a spoiler, though.

[OCM]

Bridgeport28A1-

I believe that's the Karpis Thompson recovered. It's at the South St Paul Sheriff's Dept I think. They used to let people look at it. Have a picture of my old good friend, the late Rick Mattix holding it, some of you may know him. Gordon probably has the number in his book.

Can't remember, think it was dropped at a bank robbery there in St Paul ? Kinda a guess on my part.

[Black River Militaria CII]

Just a point to keep in mind that after Dec. 2, 1968, first day of the post-'68 Amnesty, no further registrations of MGs were legally allowed for private possession. So, although I have heard that ATF (Treasury/IRS) "registered" a number of MGs post-Amnesty, and not with IRS numbers, it doesn't seem likely that any MGs would show up with IRS numbers submitted for registration after the end of the Amnesty. FWIW

[Bridgeport28A1]

Swift Co. (Meat Packing) Payroll Robbery in South St.Paul, you are correct on the Karpis connection. Federal Agents recovered the stolen Thompson from "Doc" Barkers apartment in Illinois. The recovered Thompson was returned to the PD along with a C drum also with its serial number ground off.

 

I do have a picture of me holding the Thompson with a C drum.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Bridgeport28A1

[OCM]

Ah, you saying the serial number was ground off the Thompson ? There is a lot of connection between, Nelson/Carroll and the gals and girlfriends and Karpis. Then toss in Riley who was at the Little Bo affair , whose sister was the sister of Radio Sally or something .

Have to get it straight in Ellen's book.

First things first on the serial numbers of the Karpis gun.

[Bridgeport28A1]

OCM, the returned South St.Paul PD Colt serial number was ground off the receiver, lower frame. The C drum serial drum was "ground off" as well. The Colt looked just like someone put it up against a bench grinding wheel. Not very pretty.

 

I can try to get photo link tomorrow. The photographs are from the 35mm film era.

[gijive]

Sandy,

 

According to Gordon Hergistad's Colt Serial Numbers, Two-Volume Edition, the gun in question was recovered on January 8, 1935, at 432 W. Surf St., Chicago, IL. Surf Street is just north of Diversey and just west of Lake Shore Drive. That would be considered the near North side of Chicago. The FBI determined that the ground off serial number was No. 7679. Auto-Ordnance records indicate that No. 7679 was shipped to the South St. Paul, MN, Police Department on May 22, 1933,

[OCM]

Cross off another one in the Twin Cities, thanks Chuck....

[Bridgeport28A1]

Sandy, I could only locate my B&W photos, the color photos are hiding in my office.

 

https://i.imgur.com/h6qEuww.jpg

 

https://i.imgur.com/hWx573I.jpg

 

They left a portion of the M in MODEL

Edited October 21, 2017 by Bridgeport28A1