DukeNukem Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hi guys. Just agreed to buy a local transferable Urich m1 thompson. It's in superb condition and someone (maybe him) has put on all the Bridgeport roll marks on it and what not. It's gonna come with 4 bolts, like 20 mags, soft case and probably some more stuff I'm forgetting. Anyway $16k for the whole package. I think it's a a good deal and I'm gonna buy it either way. What do you guys think fair market value is on one of these guns? BTW I already own a WH 1928. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Thread on Richard W. Urich TSMGs: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15604&hl=%2Burich+%2Bthompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 7, 2017 Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 its a re welded receiver correct? dont see how you could go wrong on a shooter for $16k rewats often ask $20k (dont think they ever get it though) if i didnt own a thompson and had the option for $16k id pick it for a shooter over a $26k original gun....it may always be more difficult to sell in the future(if you care), but priced right it will always sell just like you bought it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukem Posted March 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 Thread on Richard W. Urich TSMGs: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15604&hl=+urich++thompsonThat is the exact gun I'm buying. Is that you Ryan? I know the current owner bought it in 2015-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukem Posted March 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2017 its a re welded receiver correct? dont see how you could go wrong on a shooter for $16k rewats often ask $20k (dont think they ever get it though) if i didnt own a thompson and had the option for $16k id pick it for a shooter over a $26k original gun....it may always be more difficult to sell in the future(if you care), but priced right it will always sell just like you bought itIt's not a rewat. Urich form 1'ed back in the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 8, 2017 Report Share Posted March 8, 2017 A rewat and a reweld aren't the same thing. Is the receiver a rewat, reweld, or clone receiver like a Richardson or Philly ord? I would say a good running clone gun for $16k is a good deal. or even a gently re-watted gun not a big fan of rewelds, some of them are fubar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 8, 2017 Report Share Posted March 8, 2017 didnt know there was a difference...if the dewat= cutting the receiver into 3 pieces ---isnt a reweld the same thing? i know they didnt dewat them all the same..some dewats werent all that drastic a shooter for $16k that functions----a great deal...cheaper than most WH's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timkel Posted March 8, 2017 Report Share Posted March 8, 2017 In today's market, $16k was a good deal. Post some pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 8, 2017 Report Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) When people call a gun a dewat, typically they are referring to a gun that had it's barrel filled with weld metal and maybe the barrel spot welded to the receiver. Importers would have the guns de-watted so they would not have to pay the huge $200 tax. It just so happens that these dewat guns can be rewatted and registered as transferrable NFA guns. So certain gunsmiths have made a business out of rewatting them. Some of the rewats require just a barrel change and some require extensive repairs. That's not the same as a re-weld. A reweld is a gun assembled from cut up receiver parts that were sold as metal scrap. Seeing as how welding is a high science and seeing as how a lot of re-welds are twisted and crooked slightly on all six possible dimensional degrees of freedom, i would not buy one. Reconbob showed me a reweld that looked like a banana, the front of the bolt moved up and down about 1/8" as the bolt travelled back and forth. In general, the rewelds and rewats are not as valuable as unmolested guns. No big mystery there. Edited March 8, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted March 9, 2017 Report Share Posted March 9, 2017 When people call a gun a dewat, typically they are referring to a gun that had it's barrel filled with weld metal and maybe the barrel spot welded to the receiver. Importers would have the guns de-watted so they would not have to pay the huge $200 tax. It just so happens that these dewat guns can be rewatted and registered as transferrable NFA guns. So certain gunsmiths have made a business out of rewatting them. Some of the rewats require just a barrel change and some require extensive repair In general, the rewelds and rewats are not as valuable as unmolested guns. No big mystery there.Just to clarify for any new people to the boards, not familiar, you are talking about REGISTERED DeWaTs (De-Activated War Trophy) typically on a Form 5. Upon approval of the Form 1, they can be ReActivated. There is no value in an unregistered DeWaT which is contraband. It would seem silly to repeat this, however if you spend anytime talking to the public about machineguns, you will soon realize that most gun guys have to no idea what they have in their possession so it does bear repeating. Most of the DeWaTs are not cut into pieces as it was not required when they were largely available via mail order. Depending on the severity, some can be very close in value to a refinished original gun, others can be a basket case. I'll keep my comments about rewelding to myself. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukem Posted March 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2017 To be clear this is neither a rewat nor a reweld. Urich in the waning days of the approaching Hughes ammendment form 1'ed and milled out a recover blank to make a new one. He sold these as registered recievers. Then people engraved it, added all the parts and added roll marks. I agree with battering ram that $16k is a good deal. Now I don't plan on selling it any time soon. But do you guys think it is currently worth more than that? Pics to follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukem Posted March 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2017 Pics below. A faithful clone by Urich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorcar Posted March 9, 2017 Report Share Posted March 9, 2017 That's nice, you did good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlett4 Posted March 9, 2017 Report Share Posted March 9, 2017 Very nice,you did fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 9, 2017 Report Share Posted March 9, 2017 im sure its worth a couple thousand more...but then when you sell it your market is small...so you'd have to give a great deal to the next guy to sell it quickly maybe there is a Urich fan club and it will be a highly treasured item Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 Are you sure that this Urich gun isn't a Philly Ord or Richardson receiver? Did Urich machine receivers or did he just register receivers? I would say that a good running Thompson "shooter" for $16k is a good deal. I would buy it. I seriously doubt that any of the clone Thompsons will ever have any status as a 'collector item" as opposed to a "shooter". Gun collecting is about the imagination of the collectors, how they romanticize the past. There's no emotional romantic notion associated with some random guy registering some clone receivers in 1986. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwiifirearms Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) A collectible can be anything people collect. Beanie babies and baseball cards are collected. Lots of mass produced modern guns are collected. I have no doubt there are lots of people that will consider the various Thompson clones collectibles. In fact any transferable machine gun might be considered a collectible relic of the long ago days when a machine gun could be made for a civilian. It has been 30 years, in 30 more there will hardly be an NFA owner alive that bought one before they stopped making them. They are all going to be collectibles. Edited March 10, 2017 by wwiifirearms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 I upgraded from my '28 West Hurley to a '28A1 Savage because I was able to land a good deal on a DEWAT gun. That and I wanted a true Thompson from WWII or before. If a DEWAT is done properly, one would not know that it was. I don't see any value difference in a gun that was properly redone and shoots without any issues, but that is just my opinion and we all know what they say about those. I have redone two DEWAT guns to this point-my M3 Grease Gun, my fathers Beretta 38/a44, and soon to add a Thompson to that list. I was told that the old way of thinking was that DEWAT prices for inactive guns were typically half of the selling price for an active one. This now does not seem to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 I upgraded from my '28 West Hurley to a '28A1 Savage because I was able to land a good deal on a DEWAT gun. That and I wanted a true Thompson from WWII or before. If a DEWAT is done properly, one would not know that it was. I don't see any value difference in a gun that was properly redone and shoots without any issues, but that is just my opinion and we all know what they say about those. I have redone two DEWAT guns to this point-my M3 Grease Gun, my fathers Beretta 38/a44, and soon to add a Thompson to that list. I was told that the old way of thinking was that DEWAT prices for inactive guns were typically half of the selling price for an active one. This now does not seem to be the case. I agree with you on Rewats. I've seen them sell at or near untouched guns over the years. Much though depends on the extent of the Dewatting method and the skill of the Rewatter. I never saw a formula for Rewat pricing. Condition was the key there. I do remember this though; Rewelds and Pre-samples were 50% of original gun price and Posties were 10%. Ballpark. Big Ballpark only. Bob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Suppose a nice original unmolested 1928A1 will sell in the current marketplace for $25,000. Why would someone pay the same price for a 1928A1 re-wat? They CAN pay the same and they probably HAVE paid the same, but there was no logical justification for it. If I was buying a re-wat, I would expect a discount because it's not the same as an original un-rewatted gun. If the price is the same as the un-rewatted gun, I would just go buy the unrewatted gun Edited March 10, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 ive seen one person trying to sell a rewat for wasnt it $22k a while back....i think he was down to $20k and stubborn..... im sure it sold...maybe 4-5 months ago for me id rather pay $5k more for original........but in this current case -$9-10k sounds great...assuming it functions correctly.......-$9-10k would make me reconsider what i want....$5k is border line for me..... when i was searching had i found his deal for $16k i might have been a buyer and spend $10k on something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 If a gun was redone properly, how would one ever know it was a dewat unless told? It comes down to how well it is redone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 Yeah but... will someone doing a FOIA be able to determine when it was deactivated or reactivated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted March 13, 2017 Report Share Posted March 13, 2017 The deactivation would not show. The reactivation requires a F1 or F2 depending on who reactivates the gun so it should be there. Then I believe the gun should be engraved by the one who does the work. Hmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 14, 2017 Report Share Posted March 14, 2017 The guns do not have to be engraved as one is not manufacturing a new gun, but rather repairing it. The Form 1 for an individual or Form 2 for SOT is only to notify ATF that said gun is now active. Form 1 must come back approved before work can be started. The Form 2 must be submitted within 24 hours of the gun becoming active again. Engraving is only needed when building a "new" firearm (SBR, SBS, Suppressor) DEWATs are not "new" machine guns, but rather guns on the registry which are inactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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