NOS Colt 1921A barrel on Gunbroker

[J50shootr]

Hello everyone. I was shopping Thompson parts on GB and came across this barrel. Maybe a member here has it listed. I thought it might be a good investment for a future Colt purchase. I am not real knowledgeable about Colt parts. Does anyone have any thoughts about this barrel before I bid? Thanks James.

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/939205549

[TD.]

Great question James. Let's say for the sake of argument that this is an original never installed Colt 1921 barrel. Where would you use it? I don't think you are going to find many 98% Colts in need of a barrel replacement. If you install this barrel on a 70% to 90% Colt Thompson Thompson, it will stick out like sore thumb.

 

That said, the provenance of this barrel would be very important to me. Where did it come from? Who is the reputable dealer? That is not something I would want to find out after paying my money. I have seen many high priced "Colt" barrels at Knob Creek over the years with no provenance that were highly suspect. I would much prefer an 85% to 90% barrel from a known receiver cut Form 10 Thompson. That is the provenance I am looking for. If an original Colt barrel was needed and the general condition and type matched the Colt that needed a barrel replacement, the price would probably be 4K to 5K, perhaps more. I know where some original Colt barrels are, but I don't know of any for sale.

 

Is this an original Colt barrel.? Not for my money! But others may disagree, and I am OK with that.

 

One of the nice benefits about attending a Thompson Association Show & Shoot are the displays of many types of Thompson guns. With that barrel in-hand, it would be easy to walk around the show and compare it against known original barrels on guns, especially the finish. There would also be several knowledgeable enthusiasts that would gladly take a look and provide an opinion on originality.

 

Good luck!

[J50shootr]

TD, Thank you for your sage advice.

[reconbob]

T.D. makes some good points. I don't know how it would be possible to authenticate

this (or any) barrel regardless of the seller. I have an original M1921 barrel here that I use

for reference. I have had it forever, its a little bit of a dog - maybe 50% condition - and it is

threaded for the type 1 comp. When i compare it to the barrel on GB it looks to me that the

fins on the barrel on GB are too thin, and at the end towards the front too sharp.. For me to

feel comfortable buying a barrel like this I'd want to sit it down right next to an original 90+ gun

and compare. Also, you can't tell from the photos on GB but does the barrel have the "royal

blue" finish as opposed to a blue/black finish?

 

 

 

Bob

 

 

 

[J50shootr]

Bob. Thank you for your input. Great advice. You guys have reinforced my lack of warm and fuzzy feeling about this barrel. It doesnt look right even to my novice eye. Any thoughts about the tooling chatter between the acme threads?

[reconbob]

I thought I saw the "chatter" when I looked but could not find it again. But

now that you mention it, I looked again and if you enlarge the GB photo #4

you can clearly see the evenly spaced striations in the bottom of the square thread.

To me, this now becomes a G.I. WW2 barrel being passed off as a Colt. I have

frequently noticed these striations on G.I. barrels and I always wondered (don't

know the answer) if the square thread was - for some barrels - machined in a

shaper-type machine where the cutter reciprocated in and out of the cut as the

barrel was rotated, vs. being machined/turned on a lathe where you would not

get the striations.

If you were machining/turning on a lathe and you got chatter that bad your

cutting tool would not last long at all. The striations on the barrels that have them

are so even and consistent that I figured it was the result of a machining technique

as opposed to random chatter caused by a dull tool, tool not on centerline, tool not

rigid in holder, etc. etc.

 

Bob

[J50shootr]

Great info. I did not know they machined threads in that fashion. The striations between the square thread are what really set off the alarm bells. As beautifully machined as Colts are, I would be shocked that they would manufacture a barrel thread like this. Especially after spending the time and effort on the cooling fins. I will pass. Thank you. James.

[giantpanda4]

My guess is this is a Richardson barrel - made from a WWII barrel and thin finned. Or maybe someone else made it.

[colt21a]

I sold a 21ac barrel here that came from a pd awhile back one member here bought it said Ron looks too good not sure i gave refund second member bought it got it said he was sure 50% not Colt but could not figure out who made it.{i said it came with parts from p.d. who knows}i gave refund final member wanted it i said $500 bucks you can have it.He needed it for a gun with bad barrel.it was blue and great early thin fins and correct number count fins and not Richardson, or another maker. this one looks current made and not 100 years old. in my fifty years of hunting for the stuff i came across a loose one used from a gun.

 

who would want to pay thousands and find out later its $500 bucks. as Tom and a few said buy it as repo for a upgrade on a gun/

 

and that reputable dealer part. how many of those got stained later with some issues. dozens and dozens of them. we don't need names we already know. $500 TO $700 BUCKS TO ME.

and you won't get hurt.RON K.

[J50shootr]

Thank you Ron.

[colt21a]

J50 You won't get hurt getting it just buy it as repro.and this dealer who says another dealer who knows a dealer who knew general Thompson. a story right.

 

all my stuff i ever posted on this forum i can back up. you never have to make up tall tales if you did do it.

its those who have never seen chit and done anything come up with all these stories and just plain b.s.or they parrot some talker at johnny cracker barrel gun shop in Jerkwater u.s.a.{when did we hear that one}

 

and watch out for super rare or the famous ULTRA RARE

WITH THIS FORUM we have enough here who can guide you in the right directions. good luck in whatever you do in Thompsons.RON K.

[MrBill]

Does anyone remember how much Richardson sold his "Colt" barrels for? I also thought the Thompson Gunsmith in Colorado...Diamond K ......made or modified Thompson barrels to look authentic on Colts?

[Bridgeport28A1]

Reconbob has been offering Richardson 1921 barrels on Gunbroker almost weekly at $375.00

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/937500455

[arrgh1934]

Just for clarification - I was the member who purchased the barrel from Ron/Colt 21 a. I did so with the understanding it would come also with a correct stock and hardware. At the time being quite naïve within the Thompson community ,I paid $3500 for Rons barrel and stock. Thanks to the assistance of a couple members of this board ,I quickly learned that the above barrel referenced had wrong number of fins and was clearly a reproduction. The stock did not have matching butt plate numbers and other issues. Very naïve of me to purchase these items essentially site un seen -however ,he being a respected member of the community I thought it was acceptable to proceed. Upon explanation Ron graciously excepted the items back with a full refund -but it took a few weeks. I looked at my PMs with Ron this morning regarding that transaction-lots of BS.This experience taught me to trust my own research and establish contacts within the community that truly want to preserve the Thompson legacy.

[Sandman1957]

It could be one of Dave's barrels he makes. I have bought several from him and they are outstanding!

https://thompsonbarrels.com/

 

I put one on COLTS TSMG 11317 1928 Navy and it runs great. Looks great and I did not have to worry about hurting it.

Sandman1957

[colt21a]

I brought that DEAL on the forum up so others can do the same and check things out.{LIKE THAT BARREL}

i have left the confessional now. bless me father...and buy a recon bob...

[benedw60]

Prices are out of control, I just ask the big guy this morning to repeal the NFA so the market drops 90% so the younger generation can enjoy the market.

[J50shootr]

Amen.

[Robert Henley]

I see the seller updated his listing as follows:

 

Original Colt1921A Thompson barrel (NOS) - Class 3 Parts & Accessories at GunBroker.com : 939205549

 

"This barrel is not a WW2 barrel because the muzzle band for the ring sight on a Colt 21A barrel is not tappered like the WW2 barrel, also Colt made replacement parts and barrels up till the Mcquire era for the Thompson sub machine gun."

 

The old saying if it's too good to be true it probably is, comes to mind.

[MrBill]

Okay I need a real Colt Thompson Barrel but i am a patient, frugal customer . you guys are fantastic in helping novices make decisions. So the seller on GB has added this additional info " This barrel is not a WW2 barrel because barrel band for the front ring site is not tapered" ...He then adds that Colt manufactured replacement parts for the Colt Thompsons up until the McGuire era?? I thought Savage got all the parts and some machinery when Colt gave up on the Thompson?

[TSMG28]

MrBill,

 

We have a letter from Colts to Savage in November 1939 that indicates that Colts was still manufacturing/supplying a lot of spare parts for Auto-Ordnance. That particular letter does not include barrels, but does include all of the lower and upper receiver internals, plus XX and L magazines. Therefore, it is certainly possible that they were also providing replacement barrels at that time.

[TD.]

"I thought Savage got all the parts and some machinery when Colt gave up on the Thompson?"

 

Mr. Bill,

Colt did not give up on the Thompson. Colt completed the contract with Auto-Ordnance in 1922 by manufacturing 15,000 Thompson submachine guns. Colt continued to support Auto-Ordnance in the ensuing years by manufacturing spare parts. This support continued up until the time Auto-Ordnance contracted with Savage Arms in December 1939 for the manufacture of 10,000 Thompson submachine guns. As stated by TSMG28, the known documentation does not include barrels.

 

There is no documentation that Savage "got all the parts" when they contracted with Auto-Ordnance. George E. Goll, Chief Engineer of Auto-Ordnance, was assigned to the Savage factory in Utica, New York to help Savage get the Thompson gun in production. It would make sense Goll took some spare parts and a completed Colt manufactured Model of 1928 or two from Hartford, Connecticut for Savage engineers to study. Savage would not need a large quantity of Thompson parts as they were capable of manufacturing all the parts necessary to make a Thompson gun. More importantly, Auto-Ordnance stores of spare parts at the leased space at the Colt factory were valuable corporate assets and most likely sold as spare parts to customers of the Thompson gun. The most likely customers in early to mid 1940 were the British and US military. There is no indication the new President of Auto-Ordnance, J. Russell Maguire, would voluntarily give anything of value away for free.

 

All good stuff!!!

[MrBill]

TD Thank You .....What is your opinion of this barrel being a real Colt? I have not seen a cut up Colt on a form 10 for sale for at least 10 years.

[bug]

The barrel is claimed as new old stock and was never on a gun. If the barrel is WWII M1, vintage There would be mfg marks on the collar. If they were removed, that would reduce the diameter of that collar. Seller mentions taper muzzle, front sight boss. I thought Colt's were tapered for sight installation but I can't prove that. If I were making a barrel that was to be threaded for a comp, I would not taper the boss. Is the barrel Colt? Who knows...

[TD.]

Mr. Bill,

As I stated previously, not for my money. If I had an original Colt's barrel for sale, I would tell everything I knew about the history of the barrel and price it accordingly. I do know a dealer in the past that obtained several Colt NOS or spare parts barrels from a police department that purchased the barrels many years earlier from Auto-Ordnance. He used these barrels to replace bulged or ringed barrels on Colt's he obtained while in business. No thought was given to saving one as there were a number of Form 10 and unregistered Colt's being destroyed for parts during this period so original Colt barrels were regularly available on the market. This was a time when owners shot Colt's regularly with original actuators and barrels. Obviously, times have changed.

 

The barrel being offered for sale has 28 fins. Doug Richardson finned barrels all seem to have 28 fins. The way the last fin (toward the muzzle end) on this barrel ends makes me think it is a Richardson barrel. Or a World War II smooth barrel someone else has finned. The chatter in the thread area seems to confirm it is not a Colt product. However, I do not know the seller or have seen this barrel in person.

 

Finding an original Colt barrel for sale nowadays is very difficult. The few I remember being for sale recently were well used, bulged and/or ringed and not really in a condition to use as a replacement barrel on a Colt's. APEX has sold a few like this with proper descriptions and reasonable prices in the last year or so. I bought a well-used barrel from SARCO threaded for a Type 1 compensator that I believe is a Colt product. The price was right after some negotiation with Machine Gun Dave at the end of a long day at Knob Creek because the barrel is slightly bent! However, it makes a good reference piece.

 

As I state in my Amateur's Guide book, original finish and barrels are sometimes very difficult to discern. Experience is the key. That is why I always promote joining and attending the two Thompson Association Show & Shoots. The people you meet and the Thompson guns you will see are the building blocks to making an educated judgement on any Thompson gun, accessory or part you may find for sale. This in person experience will reinforce what you learn from the reference books and on this great forum. And it is a lot of fun! In addition, there are also many Thompson parts and accessories (and guns) sold or traded at these events that are never advertised to the general public. Come, be a part of these great events!