Crack open the piggy bank

[StrangeRanger]

Your estimated price is about $10K too high.  See the prices scattered throughout this thread 

https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27072-latest-value/#comment-251220

As for "matching" these are not German guns.  The only serialized part other than the receiver is the stock and often not even that.  Many if not most M38/42s have been refitted with a M38/44 bolt.  This was usually an arsenal or unit armorer refit; in any case it is IMNSHO a distinct improvement from a functional and reliability standpoint and should not affect the value in the slightest.  Avoid the M38/49 Model 5s such as those that are erroneously being sold as M38/44 parts kits.  They have (obviously) no wartime provenance and have a clunky forward mounted safety which has to be operated by the left hand while firing the gun

[Rekraps]

Update on the GB PPSH41;

stock, barrel, trigger guard, lower tang & receiver match, bolt does NOT. 
 

Great looking gun, but at the high end! I still think I'd take a swing at it if I had the $$$

[StrangeRanger]

Then there's this one:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011632235

[Rekraps]

2 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Then there's this one:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011632235

Now this one deserves a bit of discussion. Very nice gun, I spent quite a bit of time magnifying the pics to look closer and in fact this is a super example of an all matching 1944 PPSH, even looks like the original sling. The price? Woah Nellie! I'd love to see it sell but it does seem a bit ambitious. The Segel collection line has zero value as it add nada to the provenance of the gun. Much different than a Keosayian gun for example.

IMO, I think the more likely price for this gun is the low 40's. I own two super examples myself and the fact is that there are just not that many. Copious numbers of run of the mill M16's, MP5's, Uzi's and Mac's are available, but if you are interested in collecting (vs shooting) SMG's, then the vintage OB SMG's are in fact difficult to find. I'd love to get this and might make a run at it (not at $60 though). I comb the sites almost every day and increasingly the C&R stuff is being supplanted by modern MG's. 

Of course the market determines price and it's starting to look like the C&R vintage market is heating up again. Maybe a new batch of collectors joining the Frey, maybe people realizing that these items are really good investments. I wonder what his OEM spare parts list looks like....

I would love to add this gun to the collection. 

 

 

 

[Rekraps]

Which is why a M38 is looking more attractive every day.... great point on that gun.

[Rekraps]

2 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Then there's this one:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1011632235

Now that I look at it a bit closer, I think this gun has, at some time in the past, been reconditioned. Still super nice, and I'd love to have it.....

[StrangeRanger]

I'm not sure that the "Molot" arsenal marking was partially polished out; it may have just been lightly struck.  The apparent blueing in some of the small pits on top of the receiver does make me wonder though.  The pictures work for buying a "shooter grade" but they really aren't a reliable way to price a "collector quality" gun as this is purported to be.  For $60K you'd want to buy a plane ticket to Idaho

[StrangeRanger]

Check your email

I meant PMs (D'oh!)

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by StrangeRanger

[Rekraps]

2 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

I'm not sure that the "Molot" arsenal marking was partially polished out; it may have just been lightly struck.  The apparent blueing in some of the small pits on top of the receiver does make me wonder though.  The pictures work for buying a "shooter grade" but they really aren't a reliable way to price a "collector quality" gun as this is purported to be.  For $60K you'd want to buy a plane ticket to Idaho

100% correct. My Molot markings are also lightly stamped, that's not what bothers me. I pulled out my C&R that is about 90% original finish, same Molot stamp but the finish is different. This may surprise everyone, but the factory finishes on the PPSH's was actually pretty nice. Smooth shiny... the one on the  GB gun is smooth, but looks very similar to my reconditioned gun, albeit the GB gun was clearly worked on many years ago (part of the finish is worn). 

So, I do believe my instincts are correct, great gun, really nice, all matching and reconditioned. Still worth in the low 40's IMO.

[StrangeRanger]

Most Shpagins I've seen have little or no finish left other than patina but what there is of it usually a low-gloss blue like the barrel of this one.  The receiver appears to be almost a flat blue. That is usually more a function of metal prep than anything else but it could also be a trick of the lighting.  No way to tell from pix.

The fact that the bolt is unpolished points towards the gun not having been refinished.

Check your PMs

[APEXgunparts]

I had a look at some of the guns that were at Robert Segel's estate, including the PPsH-41.
Those pictures in the GunBroker auction are taken on the floor of the Segel house, in the space he had dedicated to the collection.
I have a few of the images saved from that time showing the same carpet.

I liked that PPsH-41, but it was spendy and I already have one (see attached image).

I have seen a few of the Robert Segel guns come up for sale or auction recently.

Richard

 

[maxfaxdude]

4 hours ago, APEXgunparts said:

I had a look at some of the guns that were at Robert Segel's estate, including the PPsH-41.
Those pictures in the GunBroker auction are taken on the floor of the Segel house, in the space he had dedicated to the collection.
I have a few of the images saved from that time showing the same carpet.

I liked that PPsH-41, but it was spendy and I already have one (see attached image).

I have seen a few of the Robert Segel guns come up for sale or auction recently.

Richard

 

After Robert passed, I flew to Milwaukee to look at another gun for sale in his collection.  He had a lot of nice high grade machineguns.   Many had already been sold before I got there.  Much of the stuff was in pristine condition but for me the prices were too high so I passed.   I've got enough "unfired museum pieces" already.  He also had a lot of miniature replica firearms, some which were fully functional.     

[johnsonlmg41]

Did he have anything that wasn't refinished?  AFAIK every mount and most of the guns were all refinished at some point.  Not sure what the thinking was there?  I saw a perfectly good tripod he owned with 85% wartime finish on it, in for repainting at a local shop?  The guys that paid the prices on the list for refinished stuff will be buried in it for some time to come before the market catches up, fortunately most of the buyers and future buyers have no idea, so maybe it works out? 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by johnsonlmg41

[APEXgunparts]

17 hours ago, maxfaxdude said:

After Robert passed, I flew to Milwaukee to look at another gun for sale in his collection.  He had a lot of nice high grade machineguns.   Many had already been sold before I got there.  Much of the stuff was in pristine condition but for me the prices were too high so I passed.   I've got enough "unfired museum pieces" already.  He also had a lot of miniature replica firearms, some which were fully functional.     

 

The miniature collection was really cool!
The tiny Thompson was a transferable.
I could see how those were appealing because of the space savings and the workmanship.
Then there was the other end of the scale...



This BIRA gun was part of Robert Segel's estate.
Now it is displayed in the lobby at APEX Gun Parts

Richard

 

 

[timkel]

5 minutes ago, APEXgunparts said:

 

The miniature collection was really cool!
The tiny Thompson was a transferable.
I could see how those were appealing because of the space savings and the workmanship.
Then there was the other end of the scale...



This BIRA gun was part of Robert Segel's estate.
Now it is displayed in the lobby at APEX Gun Parts

Richard

 

 

Edmond Garrigue only made a small number(22?) of tiny transferrable Thompsons. I imagine they are all tucked away in the finest collections.

[johnsonlmg41]

I recall when IMA was selling those BIRA guns.  They were not quick movers.....literally or figuratively. 

Eric from Lakeside always touted the ability to carry a full set of Brownings in a suitcase.  The little stuff is kind of cool, but most of it is display only and non functional.  I always stop at the show in KY to look at those because they are quite interesting.   When a metal printer gets cheap enough I might make the leap?

[Rekraps]

On 9/30/2023 at 2:45 PM, StrangeRanger said:

Most Shpagins I've seen have little or no finish left other than patina but what there is of it usually a low-gloss blue like the barrel of this one.  The receiver appears to be almost a flat blue. That is usually more a function of metal prep than anything else but it could also be a trick of the lighting.  No way to tell from pix.

The fact that the bolt is unpolished points towards the gun not having been refinished.

Check your PMs

Got the PM's.... thanksk.

[signal_4]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:05 AM, Rekraps said:

Now that I look at it a bit closer, I think this gun has, at some time in the past, been reconditioned. Still super nice, and I'd love to have it.....

Well I guess since nobody was nibbling at 60k he decided to use reverse psychology and now the price is 70k 😖

[Rekraps]

18 hours ago, signal_4 said:

Well I guess since nobody was nibbling at 60k he decided to use reverse psychology and now the price is 70k 😖

I saw that. Expert marketing.