Can you give me information from the serial number?

[Frank Iannamico]

I stand corrected, but I do recall that ATF rescinded the C&R status of the original letter that approved West Hurley 1928 models, only to reinstate them months or years later. Not sure if the letter posted predates that.

I agree that 15k for a shooter Thompson is a fair deal.

[johnsonlmg41]

Mike hammer's post is correct.

they are all C+R, regardless.   It hammered at 15K plus their sliding scale premium.

Due diligence is on the buyer since nothing the description claim is inaccurate.  The gun does say Auto ordnance....just not the original one, but that would be part of the buyers responsibility.  Auction houses are consignors, so you need to assume they have no experts and are there strictly to consummate a financial transaction for the most part, and market product that individuals do not want to do.   If you think they are your friend, don't have a reserve price, or won't bid against you, you would be mistaken. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by johnsonlmg41

[bob241]

https://www.alderferauction.com/auctions/item/bw13814872#gallery-37

There seems to be more problems with this Thompson, if you look very carefully at the trigger frame, there seems to be a weld in front of the selector lever  in picture 37 of the action sight pictures,  also the arrow that should show in this area is missing. also if you go to the auction sight and look carefully at pictures ( in large them if you can on your computer) pictures 36, 22 and 24 show a streak on both sides of the trigger frame that could be some type of weld. This is just my opinion, as my tired 86 year old eyes may be just seeing things that are not there, also the bullet logo in front of the rear sight is also  seems to be missing.

[Chappy]

Bob241, thank you, very thorough. I will take a look now. You all have been and continue to be very helpful.

Chappy

[Chappy]

johnsonlmg41

What you are saying is simply not true. When they descibe then they take responsibility. If they say nothing then it is buyer beware. I don't know where you get your information but it is  inaccurate and shows lack of experience and knowledge. They go so far as to mention a small area of wear yet not a possible weld? They say it is an A/O in the headingthen is had better be an A/O. In well over 150K of purchasing guns at auction I have hade very few items with discrepancies. One M1897 worked on by Coyote Cap was so loose it rattled but was still withing perameters and all I needed to do was send it to BullCreek Arms for him to work his awesomeness on it.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Chappy

[Chappy]

Mike Hammer, many thanks fr your infrmation and sharing of the letter. I have never had issues like this with Rock Island or Morthy so this is new.

[Mike Hammer]

10 minutes ago, Chappy said:

Mike Hammer, many thanks fr your infrmation and sharing of the letter. I have never had issues like this with Rock Island or Morthy so this is new.

Well, online auctions can be a dicey way to buy an expensive something or other. It would have nice for you be able to examine this gun in-person before pulling the trigger on it. Bob, I think your right, this may be a reweld as well. Note the word "single", see how the L and E are not even with the SING. Would be interested to hear others comments on those pictures.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Mike Hammer

[Chappy]

Mike Hammer, you are so right. The photos were very good and crisp but mistakes were made on my part.

 

I picked up a FN G! full auto last week and do not expect any issues with this one. Hopefully.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Chappy

[Got Uzi]

That lower frame has been welded in the trigger guard. 

[Doug Quaid]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:55 AM, Chappy said:

TD

I emailed Alderfers and hope to have the form 3 on Monday. I really appreciate all your help. You help without the attitude is great an something missing from my Sturm experience

This is the place to be if you are a Thompson man.

These guys are true blue dedicated fact finders and have helped me out tremendously, especially TD.

One thing you have to do when researching ANY aspect of ANY type of history is keep your eyes, ears and mind open.  Just because something got printed in a book doesn't mean it's 100% true.  Especially stuff that's "nifty" sounding.

 

[Doug Quaid]

Three things:

1.  I love my WWII Savage RIA rebuilt M1A1.  I bought it for the heck of it, now it's my favorite gun.  The M1 models are grossly underrated by the collector community, both in terms of engineering and as historical artifacts.

2. I would tell the auction house to jam their reweld up their lower colon.   The gun is advertised as a AO M1. Period. No mention of welding rods and engraving tools.   If I buy two halves of a 1967 Mustang and weld them together and then paint Hertz GT350 markings on it, and sell it through an auction, THE BURDEN IS ON ME TO PUT THE WORDS "THIS IS A FAKE THAT WAS WELDED TOGETHER" IN THE AUCTION.   The fact that the gun is a reweld is not a little tiny persnickety detail that they left off.    You're not complaining about the stock being held on by a 1943 screw instead of the correct 1944 screw.  You're complaining about the gun being a complete fake.  

3. You're not getting ANY Thompson for $10k.   If this gun can be shown to be a good shooter, it's a pretty decent price and maybe somebody on this forum will buy it off you and everyone will walk away happy.   You don't even need to transfer the gun to your ownership.  Just make the sale and tell the auction house that you found another buyer.  If they get all barf-y over that, then make payment, have the gun transferred to your local dealer and then to your buyer.  I got rid of an FNC sear that I changed my mind on that way.   It's not illegal in any way and ATF won't care.   In fact, my dealer (Howard Block) dropped dead from a heart attack and the ATF completed the sale to my buyer.

[Chappy]

Doug, your're a breath of fresh air. I don't mind some of these issue if I know about them. Using the A/O is copyright infringement and fraud. So the auction house may not have known. The seller KNEW! I wanted a good shooting M!A! and when I saw this I thought it was a perfect lot. SO I am bidding against others who think it's and A/O also and the price goes up. What wouldthe actual price have been if advertised as "Generic Thompson reweld, "Good shooter"" It would have sold but the premium was paid for being a genuine Thompson. 

Again, thank you and this will all be worked out. I will update the forum.

Chappy.

[Doug Quaid]

Chappy,

I don't think that you paid a premium on the gun because everyone thought it was a genuine WWII Thompson.  

It seems pretty obvious that the other bidders realized that it's a reweld, because $15k is about what the gun is worth as a reweld.

A genuine WWII M1 or M1A1 in that condition is a $25k to $30k gun.   You'll never see one for $15k.    And you will probably not see a reweld for less than $15k unless it is a real true basket case, a really ugly mess of a gun. 

I think that the auction ended with a fair price for the reweld, and if it's a good shooter it would be worth it.  There is nothing wrong with owning a "shooter."

Regardless, the ad does not say that it is a reweld and it should have.  The fact that the other buyers realized that it's a reweld does not relieve the auction house from their responsibility to say that it is.  I looked at the auction and I feel that they misrepresented it by calling it "Auto Ordnance".  It's not an "Auto Ordnance" gun, it's a "Timmy Smithers and his Sears Welder" gun.

The reason that I suggested passing it along to someone else is because it's priced pretty decent for what it is, IMHO.  You might get a buyer to take it off your hands.

 

[Mike Hammer]

12 minutes ago, Doug Quaid said:

Chappy,
The reason that I suggested passing it along to someone else is because it's priced pretty decent for what it is, IMHO.  You might get a buyer to take it off your hands.

 

Doug is right, you can easily pass this one on to another buyer because your price was in the ballpark for this type of gun. Ruben M. would be listing this gun for about 23K, (Oh yes he would), and somebody would buy it because everyone thinks he is the man, I don't but that's just me. Or list it on Gunbroker where the Class 3 gun prices are listed in imaginary land, Ha!. Jeez, I shouldn't post when I've had a few glasses of wine. Either way, your going to come out of this just fine, no worries.

[NFA amnesty]

I would want to back out of the purchase with no "ill will" towards either party.  Auction house should have had the weapon properly evaluated prior to listing the auction with appropriate description or pointing out they are not sure about certain facts.   I have a GM M16A1 rifle and form 4 has manufacturer listed as GM.  IT IS A REWELD.   It looks fantastic and functions excellent, however it is still a reweld.

I am going to assume the auction house acted in good faith and taking the weapon back would be part of that good faith.

 

 

 

 

[Chappy]

NFA amnesty

I am emailing the auction house and have been stating that they are reputable and that it seems both of us have been at fault for not doing our due dilligence. I think their "NFA" guy is a little defensive right now because we were caught off guard byan item that is not as described. As he noted, they do not see many full auto NFA items. Morthy and Rock Island see quite a few and probably would have caught this.

As of right now I have written telling them not to forward any of the money I have paid. I paid the M2 in full and have a little over $9,000 paid on this. Mistakes happen and they manner in which it is rectified is the telling facotr of a good business.

I appreciate your input and believe it to be solid and to the point. Thank you

[johnsonlmg41]

8 hours ago, Chappy said:

johnsonlmg41

What you are saying is simply not true. When they descibe then they take responsibility. If they say nothing then it is buyer beware. I don't know where you get your information but it is  inaccurate and shows lack of experience and knowledge. They go so far as to mention a small area of wear yet not a possible weld? They say it is an A/O in the headingthen is had better be an A/O. In well over 150K of purchasing guns at auction I have hade very few items with discrepancies. One M1897 worked on by Coyote Cap was so loose it rattled but was still withing perameters and all I needed to do was send it to BullCreek Arms for him to work his awesomeness on it.

 

You have very few items that you know of that have discrepancies.  Show me your MG's and I'll show you faults that were not disclosed.  Yes, I'm an FNG with a stunning lack of knowledge of auctions and NFA items. You are entitled to form that opinion....based on your lack of knowledge.  150K of guns?  I had no idea you were such a player....sorry?

Here you can read from Alderfer's website terms and conditions (that you must not have read before you bid?).

5., warranty & condition reports

All announcements made on auction day shall take precedence over previously distributed information, print or electronic media.

All items are sold "AS-IS, where-is" with no warranty expressed or implied. Descriptions are believed to be accurate but not guaranteed. Please bid accordingly if you are uncertain of the condition or use of an item. Statements by Alderfer Auction regarding the condition of objects are for guidance only and should not be relied upon as statements of fact, and do not constitute a representation or assumption of liability by Alderfer Auction. Photographs may also be used to represent condition of an item.

While every effort is made to determine provenance, authenticity and condition, it is the responsibility of the Bidder to arrive at their own conclusion prior to bidding. Provenance and authenticity including attributions are guaranteed by neither the consignor nor Alderfer Auction.

Alderfer Auction strongly encourages bidders to personally inspect and preview all lots. The Bidder should also review online descriptions, listings and/or photographs to obtain necessary information. Bidders may contact Alderfer Auction for a condition report at ConditionReport@AlderferAuction.com. Alderfer Auction will attempt to furnish one, but shall not be liable for failing to do so. All auction inquiries must be received a minimum of 48 hours prior to the start of the auction.

 

This is yet another situation where you ask questions first, then make an educated buying decision.  Not buy, then come here and ask about what you didn't know.  Not ripping on Chappy specifically, but this is pretty common place today.  This is referred to as "paying for an education".  You got lucky last week on the FAL, but this week it's dollar cost averaging time. 

[Got Uzi]

The receiver isn’t a “reweld” it’s the trigger frame so crying out it’s a “reweld” when it isn’t is only muddying the water for the actual issue at hand. The receiver appear to be one solid piece of steel. 

[Frank Iannamico]

4 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

The receiver isn’t a “reweld” it’s the trigger frame so crying out it’s a “reweld” when it isn’t is only muddying the water for the actual issue at hand. The receiver appear to be one solid piece of steel. 

I agree, there are NO original roll markings on the receiver.

[NFA amnesty]

5 hours ago, NFA amnesty said:

I would want to back out of the purchase with no "ill will" towards either party.  Auction house should have had the weapon properly evaluated prior to listing the auction with appropriate description or pointing out they are not sure about certain facts.   I have a GM M16A1 rifle and form 4 has manufacturer listed as GM.  IT IS A REWELD.   It looks fantastic and functions excellent, however it is still a reweld.

I am going to assume the auction house acted in good faith and taking the weapon back would be part of that good faith.

 

 

 

 

I should clarify, my example about the form 4 stating the manufacturer as GM when it is actually a reweld was about not  relying solely on what is listed on a Form 4 or 3.   I was NOT stating  this Thompson was a reweld.  

[NFA amnesty]

2 hours ago, Chappy said:

NFA amnesty

I am emailing the auction house and have been stating that they are reputable and that it seems both of us have been at fault for not doing our due dilligence. I think their "NFA" guy is a little defensive right now because we were caught off guard byan item that is not as described. As he noted, they do not see many full auto NFA items. Morthy and Rock Island see quite a few and probably would have caught this.

As of right now I have written telling them not to forward any of the money I have paid. I paid the M2 in full and have a little over $9,000 paid on this. Mistakes happen and they manner in which it is rectified is the telling facotr of a good business.

I appreciate your input and believe it to be solid and to the point. Thank you

Please let us know the outcome.  I am hoping for a win/win outcome for you and the auction house.  It would be interesting if the seller did not know either and assumed they had an original WW2 Thompson.

[Chappy]

johnsonlmg41

First tme with Aldefer. I have a business account primarily with Rock Island and purchase pre  WW2 DWM and early Colts. Sorry to offend. I will get this worked out with themto both of our satifaction.

[Chappy]

Got Uzi

I can see that the receiver is solid. The reweld is actually a good job but would like to look from other angles. What surprises me is that why would a trigger frame be cut in the forst place. I have etra M1 trigger frames from when iI was stocking up on parts kits so the issue for me is:

1. Why cut a trigger fame?

2. Why go to the time and expense of welding when they are plentiful on the secondary market?

[First Sergeant]

I agree with got Uzi, why fret over the trigger frame.  Buy a replacement, which are available, and then move on. If the receiver is solid and intact as it appears (from whatever source) it has the potential of being an inexpensive shooter.   Use the welded trigger frame on a display piece or sell as such.  Still perplexed on why cut/reweld a trigger frame.  🤔

[TSMGguy]

I was fortunate in my former career to have virtually unlimited travel privileges. It cost me little more than a car rental and hotel room to inspect potential purchases. I avoided some real blunders this way. Items described as mint, factory fresh, and all original often weren't. It took the inspection of several "all-matching" MP40s before I found one that actually was. 

Can't believe the amount of money that gets spent today on items that purchasers have not personally inspected, and indeed know little or nothing about.