Original TSMG Serial# Marking

[MauserMatt]

Just say you're fine with restrictions placed on our Constitutional rights and you'd clear it all up. 

I know how to color within the lines and being in the NFA community as long as you, and working for and being an 07/02 at least half that time means I've been through an audit or two. Try being a type 29 explosives dealer and go through those audits. That's fun. But what I don't understand is following ALLL these rules and regulations that are emplaced upon us gun owners and actually being content with it. But not only are you content with it, you accuse those companies/gun owners of being part of the problem when you and me as gun owners should be coming together to help fight these restrictions! The 1934 NFA, the 68 GCA and 922(o) from the 86 FOPA are not Constitutional. To use your own words, just because those laws have been around for years doesn't make them right. I'm not saying to not follow the letter of the law at all. But don't defend these clearly anti-gun gun laws and then blame gun owners for wanting to challenge them. Legally!

My interpretation of 7.6.2? Well sure I can see how YOU interpret it now that I know your stance on gun owners owning machine guns. But as a business, how can you ever know if or when a police/federal agency would ever come in to your store looking for some particular post sample? It says right there you can stockpile machine guns if they are held as samples to sell to federal or state agencies, for distribution as sales samples or exportation. I'd rather have those guns in stock if the circumstance comes up rather than have to make them for an order. I'm sure that's how dealers have their rental machine guns. The purpose for them is that they could sell to a federal agency at any time. But why not make some money on the side as a rental while it's sitting in your inventory waiting on that circumstance to pop up? I've worked for an 07/02 that had a wall of rentals for their indoor gun range. And we DID use our MP5 as a sales sample to the local PD as well as a training aid for them. All within the law. And despite what YOU say, 7.6.2 does NOT say anywhere specifically that "Post samples are not to be play toys or used at rental ranges". That's just you trying to add to a law. 

Regardless, I'm not going to change you from your stance and you won't change mine. One of us stands as a 2A absolutist, the other is happy to not rock the boat in fear of more restrictions. You can decide which one you are. What I don't want to do is get banned from this great forum for a political discussion like this. So I've said my piece and shall now exit stage left. I wish you well in your endeavors.

[StrangeRanger]

The problem is that absolutely no police/federal agency is going to be shopping for a vintage TSMG, Grease Gun, Sten or some arcane piece of vintage ComBloc weaponry.  They are only interested in things that are either in current production (AR, HK, CZ, B&T etc.) or possibly for which both guns and spares are widely available such as an UZI.  Anything else is (to borrow your phrase) coloring outside the lines.  ATF has largely tolerated it to date, the principal exception has been the abuse of LE letters, but there is reason to believe that they will not long continue to do so. The abundance of SOTs who keep changing business names, dropping their current license and getting a new one for the new business simply so that they can sell their post-samples with no letter is clearly an abuse and cannot have escaped their attention.  Do not be surprised when the crackdown comes. 

[Rekraps]

25 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

The problem is that absolutely no police/federal agency is going to be shopping for a vintage TSMG, Grease Gun, Sten or some arcane piece of vintage ComBloc weaponry.  They are only interested in things that are either in current production (AR, HK, CZ, B&T etc.) or possibly for which both guns and spares are widely available such as an UZI.  Anything else is (to borrow your phrase) coloring outside the lines.  ATF has largely tolerated it to date, the principal exception has been the abuse of LE letters, but there is reason to believe that they will not long continue to do so. The abundance of SOTs who keep changing business names, dropping their current license and getting a new one for the new business simply so that they can sell their post-samples with no letter is clearly an abuse and cannot have escaped their attention.  Do not be surprised when the crackdown comes. 

Not being a SOT or 07/22 or whatever it is, I was looking for the words that you came up with. Anyone who says they are an absolutist for any cause or idea will soon be in trouble. SCOTUS has ruled, time and again this very point. Take the 1st Amendment for instance, freedom of speech is very clear, BUT.... yelling fire in a crowded theater? Nope. Nudity in public... free speech or no? SCOTUS says no. 

We all understand 2A and why it is in the BOR. Simply stated, its' to protect the people from the government. So, SCOTUS has ruled that commonly used firearms are indeed protected, but to my knowledge, I never read of any Revolutionary age person keeping a cannon at his house, or a warship docked at his seaside house. Everyone knows that most of the guys who make MG's (Post samples I think you call them) do so as a hobby, or for personal use. Of late, meaning over the past five or so years, I've seen a plethora of adds on Sturm, GB even MGB selling these guns at pretty high prices, meaning it's being done for profit. I do believe that is what Got Uzi tried to say (although he was having a rough day that day). And, as many have pointed out, what's being made is not what the police, army or feds would be looking for where they to need a gun. 

Great post though! 

[MauserMatt]

A shop we work with to help us build our destructive device tank cannon barrels has had multiple requests for both WWII and combloc weapons to assist in training several federal agencies and military entities over the years. From machine guns to mortars and more. Just because it's not common, doesn't mean it's impossible. And we SHOULD be making this more common so that it can't be labeled as "dangerous" or "unusual". 

If you haven't read of contracted private navies during the infancy of our country, citizens that owned cannons and naval warships, then I don't know what to tell you.

Also as someone in the business myself, no, most guys that have an 07/02 do not make their machine guns just as a hobby. That's part of the ATF audit, to ensure you're conducting business and not just building machine guns for yourself. 

Here I said I was done with the conversation, but here I am again. A glutton for punishment. 

[colt21a]

AFTER 50 YEARS IN THE BIZZ I WOULD LOVE TO PUT ALL I KNOW, AND SEEN INTO A BOOK.one story is here.

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

2 hours ago, Rekraps said:

 SCOTUS has ruled, time and again this very point. Take the 1st Amendment for instance, freedom of speech is very clear, BUT.... yelling fire in a crowded theater? Nope.  SCOTUS says no. 

That Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes 1919 Schenck vs U.S.  quote is stubbornly misquoted when arguments are made by those to limit the First Amendment. The quote is: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic."  

The intent of the man shouting is neglected without the "falsely"  context. There is also no  reference to the theater capacity. The point of Holmes abstract was that speech was subject to the clear and present danger test.

U.S. District Court Judge Kathleen Cardone of the Western District of Texas ruled in December 2023 that Section 922 of Title 18 violated illegal alien Antonion Sing-Ledezma's  Second Amendment right to possess a firearm. 

This week U.S. DIstrict Court Judge Sharon Coleman of the Northern District of Illinois ruled illegal alien Heriberto Carbajal-Flores has Second Amendment rights. 

The motivations of these justices is not expressed but it would appear the goal is to remove the illegality portion of migrants crossing at any point along the Southern border by indistinguishing illegal aliens from American citizens and thereby affording them the same Bill of Rights.

[Rekraps]

4 hours ago, MauserMatt said:

A shop we work with to help us build our destructive device tank cannon barrels has had multiple requests for both WWII and combloc weapons to assist in training several federal agencies and military entities over the years. From machine guns to mortars and more. Just because it's not common, doesn't mean it's impossible. And we SHOULD be making this more common so that it can't be labeled as "dangerous" or "unusual". 

If you haven't read of contracted private navies during the infancy of our country, citizens that owned cannons and naval warships, then I don't know what to tell you.

Also as someone in the business myself, no, most guys that have an 07/02 do not make their machine guns just as a hobby. That's part of the ATF audit, to ensure you're conducting business and not just building machine guns for yourself. 

Here I said I was done with the conversation, but here I am again. A glutton for punishment. 

Well, if you go on GB right now, under Class III most of the listings (pages and pages) are "No Law Letters", "Post Samples", etc. supporting my argument above. 

The ads speak for themselves. 
 

[MauserMatt]

I guess you're right. You shouldn't enjoy the products you make or try to make money off them. You got me.... I guess?

[Rekraps]

20 hours ago, MauserMatt said:

I guess you're right. You shouldn't enjoy the products you make or try to make money off them. You got me.... I guess?

You got me wrong on this! If I was talented enough like you guys I'd do it also! It's perfectly legal so go for it. I enjoy looking at all the videos and even more so enjoy the artistry in what you guys do to keep some of the older guns in view. That latest video of the PPSH restoration is just amazing. 

I was agreeing (from my view) that most of what is being done is not the type of weapons that police departments or governmental agencies buy or want. Which of course brings us back to  the TSMG value issue, maybe because there are so many choices in modern arms that the visibility of TSMG's with police and governmental agencies has almost disappeared, thus the demand has dropped. 

What I know from collecting these and many other subguns (mostly WW2 type) is that they will kill you dead as a doornail, just as efficiently as a MP5. 

[Doug Quaid]

On 3/22/2024 at 5:58 AM, Got Uzi said:

Read section 7.6.2 of the NFA handbook and then you’ll see what I’m referring to with my comments posted above. Post samples are not to be play toys or used at rental ranges, nor for enhancing someone’s collection with the “cool factor” they are for LEO or Mil sales…so I’m sorry if I’m coming off a little harsh, but does this compute finally? Black and white, in the regs, it’s a no no. People have done it for years and have always gone with the “well it’s been done in the past” and ATF turned a blind eye due to lack of people, lack of understanding, or just didn’t care. Now they are starting to tighten the belt on these things and people want to cry foul. No the rules have always been there and when you became an SOT, you agreed to follow them so it’s not a foul, but rather the regs to agreed to play by when you signed your name on the line of the FFL application. 
 

You can say I’m a dick, angry, or even anti gun all you want (that last one makes me laugh) but I’ve been in the NFA community for going on 15 years and I’ve seen it change quite a bit in that time. Sorry if you feel that the rules aren’t fair, but I’d rather play inside them as I have neither the time, money, or inclination to take on “the man” over something that the NRA sold us out on in 1986 and good ol Wayne never kept his promise to Reagan on. 

If you are not engaged in the dastardly activity that you are complaining about, and you find it to be unacceptable, then why do you care if the ATF 'cracks down" on it?

How does it negatively affect you?

Wouldn't you be happy about it instead of pounding your keyboard in anger?

[Got Uzi]

Did you miss where I stated I’m an 07/02 and it makes things harder on guys like me? You seem to think I’m angry, I’m not, I’m stating facts that are in evidence lol

[Doug Quaid]

How does it make it harder on people like you?

Serious question.
 

 

Edited March 23 by Doug Quaid

[signal_4]

Meanwhile in Texas district 23, Brandon Herrera, The AKGUY on YouTube, and also an 07/02, is running for US Congress. When he gets elected, maybe everyone won’t have to worry about terms like pre/post samples anymore. 

Edited March 24 by signal_4

[Doug Quaid]

1 hour ago, signal_4 said:

Meanwhile in Texas district 23, Brandon Herrera, The AKGUY on YouTube, and also an 07/02, is running for US Congress. If he gets elected maybe everyone won’t have to worry about terms like pre/post samples anymore. 

Two things:

1. Did we answer the OP's question yet?  

2. You'll see pigs flying around the sky before you see new MGs added to the transferable registry.

Politicians have an easy time passing laws like "March 12th will be Hank Aaron Day."

But passing a law called "$800 M16s For All Who want One" would take a years-long national political push on the order of passing Obamacare or passing the Brady Bill. 

It would take a true political bloodletting and the broad public support will never be there for it, because the optics are bad.  In 13 HEAVILY POPULATED states you cannot even own a transferrable MG.  

The other possibility would be to have the Supreme Court declare Hughes to be unconstitutional.  And there is no reason to think that they would do that.  They are arguing the bump stock ban right now, but the arguments revolve around the definition of machine guns.  If they decide that the bump stock is indeed converting the gun to a defacto machine gun, then the ban will stay in place.  

Sometimes you see gun owners on these kind of forums complaining that "rich gun owners don't want their $30,000 guns to be worth $900" so they are somehow keeping the transferrable registry closed.  That's true: a handful of gun collectors are using their Magical Mind Powerz to control 160 million voters.  Personally, I control all of the eastern seaboard with my Mind Powerz.  It's a lot of work.  

When the Democrats manage to get all those millions of illegal aliens voting rights, which they are already talking about, this country will be officially a one-party state and for the rest of your life you'll be handing your money over to the Democrats so they can buy votes from poor people with it.  So get in there and vote R or you can kiss everything you own goodbye.

Edited March 24 by Doug Quaid

[signal_4]

23 minutes ago, Doug Quaid said:

Two things:

1. Did we answer the OP's question yet?  

2. You'll see pigs flying around the sky before you see new MGs added to the transferable registry.

Politicians have an easy time passing laws like "March 12th will be Hank Aaron Day."

But passing a law called "$800 M16s For All Who want One" would take a years-long national political push on the order of passing Obamacare or passing the Brady Bill. 

It would take a true political bloodletting and the broad public support will never be there for it, because the optics are bad.  In 13 HEAVILY POPULATED states you cannot even own a transferrable MG.  

The other possibility would be to have the Supreme Court declare Hughes to be unconstitutional.  And there is no reason to think that they would do that.  They are arguing the bump stock ban right now, but the arguments revolve around the definition of machine guns.  If they decide that the bump stock is indeed converting the gun to a defacto machine gun, then the ban will stay in place.  

Sometimes you see gun owners on these kind of forums complaining that "rich gun owners don't want their $30,000 guns to be worth $900" so they are somehow keeping the transferrable registry closed.  That's true: a handful of gun collectors are using their Magical Mind Powerz to control 160 million voters.  Personally, I control all of the eastern seaboard with my Mind Powerz.  It's a lot of work.  

When the Democrats manage to get all those millions of illegal aliens voting rights, which they are already talking about, this country will be officially a one-party state and for the rest of your life you'll be handing your money over to the Democrats so they can buy votes from poor people with it.  So get in there and vote R or you can kiss everything you own goodbye.

Yes the OP question was answered by Bob on the first page. 
 

Also  if your in for a good read 

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67656614/dewilde-v-united-states-attorney-general/

 

 

 

Edited March 24 by signal_4

[Rekraps]

20 minutes ago, Doug Quaid said:

Two things:

1. Did we answer the OP's question yet?  

2. You'll see pigs flying around the sky before you see new MGs added to the transferable registry.

Politicians have an easy time passing laws like "March 12th will be Hank Aaron Day."

But passing a law called "$800 M16s For All Who want One" would take a years-long national political push on the order of passing Obamacare or passing the Brady Bill. 

It would take a true political bloodletting and the broad public support will never be there for it, because the optics are bad.  In 13 HEAVILY POPULATED states you cannot even own a transferrable MG.  

The other possibility would be to have the Supreme Court declare Hughes to be unconstitutional.  And there is no reason to think that they would do that.  They are arguing the bump stock ban right now, but the arguments revolve around the definition of machine guns.  If they decide that the bump stock is indeed converting the gun to a defacto machine gun, then the ban will stay in place.  

Sometimes you see gun owners on these kind of forums complaining that "rich gun owners don't want their $30,000 guns to be worth $900" so they are somehow keeping the transferrable registry closed.  That's true: a handful of gun collectors are using their Magical Mind Powerz to control 160 million voters.  Personally, I control all of the eastern seaboard with my Mind Powerz.  It's a lot of work.  

When the Democrats manage to get all those millions of illegal aliens voting rights, which they are already talking about, this country will be officially a one-party state and for the rest of your life you'll be handing your money over to the Democrats so they can buy votes from poor people with it.  So get in there and vote R or you can kiss everything you own goodbye.

Well stated. It's sad to see where this country is headed. 

[Doug Quaid]

Anyone can be a bitter naysayer.  Or a slap-happy optimist.

And then there is reality.  

In my humble opinion, the best thing you can do to help gun owners is take a new guy shooting.  Especially a democrat.  Because centrist voters actually rule the USA.

There was a time when our first communist president, Dear Leader Saint Rock Star Obama, had control of the house and the senate.  

He could have ramrodded new harsh gun restrictions through congress and the senate at that time, but he didn't.  Because he knew that centrist voters wouldn't stand for it.  

centrist voters are the key to every single political topic.

 

[Outsider]

So according to 7.6.2 you can't manufacture a mg for testing or research so basically all you can do legally is build someone else's design. Hmmm... I wonder how that will work out with patent infringement lawsuits unless all you do is build ar's? Won't be any new breakthrough designs if everyone follows that rule. BTW. How are we seeing any new mg designs for the military or leo's without a prior written contract for such? Building a new mg design on the hope of getting a contract from the military or leo's would be a violation of 7.6.2 as written.

[colt21a]

No new registry, no new amnesty, they have been talking about that since 1938, and we had many blimps against us since that time. so you enjoy what you can enjoy now.not going to go over case law and a 100 cases since that time. if you been around doing it for over 50 years people will get my point.

many on other forums talk about this, and they have been dealing buying whatever they do for 5 10 15 maybe 20 years.Still not long enough to know it all or at least most all of it.

its like a 100 years if you want to master it all. i MET J. Curtis IN  Dec.1971,53 YEARS AGO.He picked me up at sky harbor airport in phx. when i returned from over seas duty,still in my  Marine Corp greens.

And at that time he said he was dealing like 20 years.and did not know 25% of all the bizz and guns.how many in 1971 was there dealing? not that many in class 3 world.

so a few new guys want to get into class 3 and post samples. enjoy the issues with it. when i retired i had well over 50 samples.all original guns, imports. no build b.s. or parts guns. but for one MP-40 the rest pre samples MP=40's, and a number of reg. original MP-40'S Had over 8 of those.

 

But starting with thoseSALES SAMPLES. in 97/98 was much easier,in 2024 have fun.

I don't discourage anybody to give it a try nowadays.{HOW ELSE WILL THEY LEARN}

[H2munitions]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:59 PM, anjong-ni said:

In response to H2M, the original poster,

It appears that wartime Thompsons were stamped with real machine-stamps that upset the metal. 
I see that some numbers in a sequence are deeper, or wobbly. Maybe they weren't hand-stamped, but their fixture wasn't always perfect.

 

We built this fixture to stamp items using the 1945 Atlas mini-mill. The stamp holder is lucite from McMaster with a 1/4" square-filed hole.

Drop number stamp in the hole, whack it, then advance the table one turn. Practice on something first. Works pretty well.

It's fun to scrounge E-bay for old fonts from the era. This one is the V-for-victory similar to what was on some mags.

                   Good luck on your projects!   ...Phil

Thank you so much Phil! I knew some/many were handstamped numbers. This is a great post and info from you regarding markings of that Era and how to replicate them. Both you and Recon provided some great info/answers. Thanks all!