Original TSMG Serial# Marking

[H2munitions]

Hello all. I recently have gotten into the TSMG world as I became a 07/02 and am building some post samples. 

I have a M1 and a 1928 build planned. Both are being built with Richardson/Philly Ord. 80% receivers. As you all know the receivers are marked correctly except the Serial number is engraged "no." And then left blank. 

What would be the proper method to mark the receiver? Does anyone know what specific font is used for TSMG markings? I have a fiber laser and if that will do the job I can do that. 

What serial number range should I use? I'd like the guns to look as close to period correct as possible within reason. At the end of the day they will still be shooters but from something as refined as the thompson I'd like them to look their best. 

 

Also if anyone knows where I can find a complete 1928 buttstock that would be great. Or just the hardware for one. I plan to post a wtb on Sturm soon. Thanks!

[Got Uzi]

Ah yes just what the world needs, most post samples of guns a PD or Military will never use or buy as well as ATF is going to get more restrictive on…More cheap MG’s for play toys. Here’s an idea-how bout buy a pre sample M1 as you’ll have roughly the same in it by the time you build a pair of posts (parts, receivers, labor) and then you have a REAL Thompson and something that is worth something in the end. 
 

if you still have your mind set on the cheap route-here’s a novel idea for the serial number-using a USGI lower-how bout use the serial number on the lower??

 

Before anyone gets there panties in a bunch, I’m an 07/02 and I’m liquidating my post samples and only keeping the ones I actually use in the ACTUAL function of my business, three HK post sample trigger packs as I build HK clone guns for people, but I also have a transferable Fleming sear as well…one of those guys who has the real version of things, not just post samples to get my jollies off with. 
 

Just join, 3 posts, and yours asking about building post samples, sure got your priorities straight here….

[H2munitions]

What a great welcome to the forum... 

[Doug Quaid]

Don't let people get under your skin.  The internet is the internet...  there's always someone taking their hangover pain out on their neighbor. 

Here's my suggestion for markings:

ELITE TACTICAL COMMANDO MARINE CORPS NAVY SEAL D-DAY THOMPSON
PROPERTY OF AUDIE MURPHY

It doesn't have to be done with a fancy engraving machine, just get an engraving bit for your dremel tool and write it really neatly.  

Ask anyone - the above script is suitable to dress up ANY Thompson, including transferrable Colts.

 

[StrangeRanger]

Lots of newly-minted 07/02s jump into making posties just because they can; you're not alone in that.  But remember that they are properly called "Dealer SALES Samples" for a reason.  Building a TSMG or some other not in production gun that is not going to be used to generate sales the way that a converted HK, B&T or CZ could be is stretching the spirit if not the letter of the law.  Basically don't think you're getting over on ATF. You're not.  You're giving them reason to tighten enforcement of the regs and documenting it for them.  Every Form 2 for a "sample" that cannot be used to generate LE or DoD sales is simply driving another nail in the coffin

[Got Uzi]

Sorry for the tough love but it is what it is.  Stating facts and if someone doesn't like it, too bad.  I'm tired of being a nice guy anymore.  My last ATF audit, I was asked why I had certain post samples as they aren't current production LEO firearms.  

 

Also-markings must be legible-.003 deep or deeper, and must be 1/16th script or bigger.....not getting that with a dremel....

[Rekraps]

3 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Ah yes just what the world needs, most post samples of guns a PD or Military will never use or buy as well as ATF is going to get more restrictive on…More cheap MG’s for play toys. Here’s an idea-how bout buy a pre sample M1 as you’ll have roughly the same in it by the time you build a pair of posts (parts, receivers, labor) and then you have a REAL Thompson and something that is worth something in the end. 
 

if you still have your mind set on the cheap route-here’s a novel idea for the serial number-using a USGI lower-how bout use the serial number on the lower??

 

Before anyone gets there panties in a bunch, I’m an 07/02 and I’m liquidating my post samples and only keeping the ones I actually use in the ACTUAL function of my business, three HK post sample trigger packs as I build HK clone guns for people, but I also have a transferable Fleming sear as well…one of those guys who has the real version of things, not just post samples to get my jollies off with. 
 

Just join, 3 posts, and yours asking about building post samples, sure got your priorities straight here….

Woah Got Uzi! Musta had a bad night!. 

So everyone knows, Got Uzi is really a good guy, I mean anyone who owns a "K" has to have some redeeming value!

[TD.]

H2munitions,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. Congratulations on becoming an 07/02. If I was an 07/02 and had the necessary skill set and equipment, I would probably build a few Post Samples too. That said, I have heard ATF is really taking a hard look at these guns, especially the ones with little or no military or law enforcement value. I find the question by an ATF inspector mentioned in Got Uzi's thread above very interesting. There has to be a reason for that question. I doubt it was idle conversation.

Regarding your question on fonts and markings, I like the idea of matching the new receiver serial number with the original number on the frame. However, many original serial numbers were removed from the frames of the Thompson part kits imported into the USA years ago. The hand stamped 6 digit numbers commonly found on the frames are not original. These past kits are often referred to as Russian part kits. As with all things Thompson, you need to understand what you are buying.

My advice is to purchase a copy of, American Thunder, Third Edition, by Frank Iannamico. This hardcover in color book, a steal at $39.99, is the authority on the military Thompson submachine guns. It has numerous pictures of the all the different WWII variations. It will answer all your questions. Since you are now a business, the cost would be tax deductible

You also may consider joining one or both or the Thompson associations. Each association has an annual show and shoot in Ohio. If you like Thompson guns, I know you would have a great time.  

[reconbob]

       I am sorry, but there is no defense or excuse for GotUzi's angry, arrogant, condescending, know-it-all reply to

a simple - and reasonable question.  Notice he did not answer the question - he just blathered on. On the ATF Form 2

there is no statement or requirement that a newly manufactured machine gun be designated as a "sales sample".

It is legal for a Class 2 to manufacture machine guns. They just cannot be sold or transferred. Rental ranges are

one of the main sectors that do this because you can put a $1500 M16 out on the range and not worry that it gets

chewed up.

     Making a new Thompson vs. a "dealer sample" can save A LOT of money. What does a pre-86 dealer sample

Thompson go for? I would think not less than $10,000 for an M1?  An unfinished Richardson or Phila Ord receiver

would be between $650-$1000,  and might take 1-2 hours to finish depending on the model. A parts set would be

between $1500-$3,000 depending on the model and the condition of the parts. So you are getting a G.I. (as opposed

to West Hurley) quality shooter for at least $5000 less. And yes, it is a REAL Thompson. OK, it's not collectable, but

it's real. (Is an HK with a Fleming sear a "real" HK?)

     For the serial number you can use 1/8 hand stamps. Hold the receiver with the top against the fixed jaw of 

a milling vise vise and use spacers between the fixed jaw and the stamps to position them. You can use any number

you want. Or, you could use the number on a M1928A1 frame but not all M1 or M1A1 trigger frames have serial

numbers. It's quite possible you have one that does not, in which case you can to pick your own number,

    Welcome to the board. I have complete M1928A1 stocks with buttplate, slide, and swivel. I will send you a PM.

Bob

[Got Uzi]

Hey Bob-I stated my option, which has a reason behind it so you can take your condescending attitude and you know where it can go.
 

I made my statement as I am sick to death of everyone wanting to become an 07/02 so they can play with “cheap machine guns” and make items that will NEVER be used for its intended purpose. Sorry but I’m not apologizing for my feelings on this as the more people play in the gray area of the NFA, the harder it will become later on for those who are actually trying to do it right. If you are making a post sample to test a product you are bringing to market, or for something new for LEO/Military use then no issue, but to want to make post samples just to have fun with, sorry no sympathy when Form 2’s start getting denied. 
 

Oh wait….i forgot….im just an arm chair armorer…..

Edited March 19 by Got Uzi

[StrangeRanger]

I was under the impression that post-samples were intended purely for demonstration and sales to LE, DoD and similar. Has ATF ever clarified in writing whether they consider range rentals a legitimate reason for manufacturing or possessing post-samples? Or have they merely tolerated them?

[Bridgeport28A1]

I spent 28 years working for a State Law Enforcement agency. Firearms/weapons were procured either directly from a manufacturer or through a law enforcement firearms dealer. We sourced M14’s at one time from a DoD program.

What are the pre ‘86 samples and post samples that law enforcement agencies are actually wanting demonstrated from a 07/02 FFL’s.

Larry Vicker’s type situations excluded.

I can not imagine there are many weapons that a law enforcement agency would need procuring that are not available by Colt, Sig Sauer, H&K or any other manufacturers directly or through their established law enforcement dealer network.

 

 

 

 

[inertord]

H2munitions, welcome to the board! 

[Rekraps]

Hey guys, time to tone it down a bit. As long as our fellow Forum members follow the law, our opinion of whether or not their "hobby" is good for the business is not germane to the discussion and counterproductive. 

I'm just a 65 year old guy who collects transferrable C&R stuff (mostly), no 07, no 02, no ATF audits, no post or pre-samples, just expensive transferrable stuff. Do I like to hear about all the other stuff that you guys do? Yep. Am I impressed by the machine skills and ability of you guys to  build gorgeous examples Yep. Could I do it myself on my little 4 foot workbench with a Sears vice and vice-grips? Nope.  What matters though, is that we all have experience and expertise in certain areas, and even when I think I know, someone else on this Forum presents information that updates or corrects my view. 

Plus, and this is most important, we collectively contribute to individual member purchase decisions and in many cases help others ovoid a potential bad buy or bad decision.

And, I love the range videos!

[Rekraps]

A perfect example is RoscoeTurner posting the PPSH41 mfg charts in the Russian Machine Gun thread. That single piece of information was a brilliant example of research that allowed many of us to determine exactly where our guns were made! Hats off to this type of contribution.

[reconbob]

   It is legal for an 07/02 to make machine guns. There is no requirement or section on the Form 2 that it be a “sales sample”.  If a guy meets the requirements and gets an 07 FFL and then pays the tax and gets the Class 2 manufacturers license he has done nothing wrong or illegal and is licensed to make machine guns.

    In my experience by far the entities that do this are rental ranges. They put a $3000 post sample Thompson out for rental instead of a $30,000 “real” Thompson and charge $1.00-$2.00 a shot.

   I have never known a Form 2 to be denied.

   BUT - if a Class 3 tries to to get a post sample transferred to them as a “dealer sample” that ship has sailed. The ATF has not approved such transfers for years. So it’s not the manufacture that has been shut down, it’s the transfers.

Bob

[anjong-ni]

In response to H2M, the original poster,

It appears that wartime Thompsons were stamped with real machine-stamps that upset the metal. 
I see that some numbers in a sequence are deeper, or wobbly. Maybe they weren't hand-stamped, but their fixture wasn't always perfect.

 

We built this fixture to stamp items using the 1945 Atlas mini-mill. The stamp holder is lucite from McMaster with a 1/4" square-filed hole.

Drop number stamp in the hole, whack it, then advance the table one turn. Practice on something first. Works pretty well.

It's fun to scrounge E-bay for old fonts from the era. This one is the V-for-victory similar to what was on some mags.

                   Good luck on your projects!   ...Phil

[MauserMatt]

I always say the biggest enemy to gun owners is other gun owners. Got Uzi's reply is the perfect example of that... 🙄

Welcome to the forum H2M! With regards to the serial number range, M1s would go up to about the 300,000 ish mark and then M1A1s would go up in the 900,000 range. 1928s and 28A1s I'm not so sure on. 

The world DOES need more Thompsons. Post sample or not. The more we can show the anti-gun crowd that machine guns are NOT dangerous OR unusual, the better. 

[Chappy]

Got Uzi has always been a straight shooter with me. It seems he is concerned withthe ATF coming down harder because of playing around in the grey areas. Not n ATF fan but I don't go poking the bear either. THey can make life as an SOT very difficult if you F-around.

[Got Uzi]

Matt-you are right in your thought that gun owners are the ones who hurt other gun owners but you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Those who poke the bear or brag about finding “loop holes” in the system, play the system, or blatantly break the rules/law are the ones hurting the gun community. 
 

“Repeal the NFA” sounds great on paper until you realize it’s not going to work in your favor. Think about it like this-Congress looks at the notion of repealing it, but at the same time sees that the tax stamp has not been increased to adjust for inflation so your stamp went from $200 to $4666.56 per item. Also I hate to say this but but those who seem to scream “it’s my right” are typically the ones who can’t handle a semi auto Colt 6920, but yet seem to think they need an M16. Rights vs responsibility is the point here. 
 

“Gun show loop hole” gun owners love this one and YES it does exist boys and girls. I see it every month when I setup and sell at the one show i do, but it’s all over. Guys who are committing felonies every time they get a table as they are       “ actively engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms without a license” as they sell off their “private collection” while having signs on their table advertising that they buy guns and whole collections, or trying to buy everything that walks in the door then reselling it. No paperwork, no background checks, no traceability, just cash and carry. See where I’m going here? Meanwhile the people with the FFL’s are having more and more hoops to jump through added because of things like this. 
 

Arm braces-we all know what those were and are, a work around to the SBR/SBS ruling. No sympathy for anyone on that one as everyone knew exactly what was going on. 
 

Open carry with rifles at protests-great for giving the media more opportunity for pictures to be used later in spinning gun owners as a bunch of blood crazy killers.

 

Getting an SOT only to build a pile of post samples then dump it to cash out as “no law letter” items. This has become an epidemic in the NFA community in recent years. Again another reason I take concern with what I was asked at my latest audit/intnerview back in January of this year….hence my comments. 
 

“Post sample collections” see the previous statement then add to it this-it states in the FFL application that the FFL is not to “enhance one’s collection” as a reason for getting an FFL. That is also true for post samples. You are enhancing your collection by building or converting items that will never enter into commerce, and have no value as an LEO or Military weapon, nor as an item to do testing with for said reasons. It’s a personal play toy, plain and simple. Why do you think law letters are coming under fire so much now? For that exact reason….people playing the system to get play toys as a work around the law, using that “loop hole” and now here we are.
 

So yes, I guess I do have a bad attitude on the subject and yes, maybe I do have an condensing opinion towards issues going on, but you are correct Matt, in the end, gun owners are screwing themselves here and we have no one to blame but our lack of common sense and individual greed. 

[MauserMatt]

All this when all you had to say was that you're one of those "I'm pro-gun, BUT.." types that aren't ACTUALLY pro-gun. At least we agree on some things: You have a bad attitude on the subject, you're afraid to rock the boat and you actually blame gun owners for trying to get around unconstitutional gun laws. 

I've seen your replies on other subjects, and you're very knowledgable and helpful. I was blown away by your initial poor response to a simple question about Thompsons. But now that you've made clear your actual feelings on the law-abiding, gun owning community, I see why you had that response. It's unfortunate. 

Apologies for getting political. I get rankled when I see gun owners like that. It's not good for the future of the hobby to be so afraid of reclaiming our freedoms or being content with the status quo. I own two transferable machine guns and they've gotten so cost prohibitive, I'm not sure I'll get to own many more. At least you "got yours" with your Fleming sear though, right? Oh well. I'm just a guy on the internet, so who cares. I wish you well sir!

[Doug Quaid]

I'm confused by this topic and the hubbub.  

people get an 07 so they can manufacture MGs, but they're not supposed to because it's a loophole?   

does not compute.

 

[Got Uzi]

Read section 7.6.2 of the NFA handbook and then you’ll see what I’m referring to with my comments posted above. Post samples are not to be play toys or used at rental ranges, nor for enhancing someone’s collection with the “cool factor” they are for LEO or Mil sales…so I’m sorry if I’m coming off a little harsh, but does this compute finally? Black and white, in the regs, it’s a no no. People have done it for years and have always gone with the “well it’s been done in the past” and ATF turned a blind eye due to lack of people, lack of understanding, or just didn’t care. Now they are starting to tighten the belt on these things and people want to cry foul. No the rules have always been there and when you became an SOT, you agreed to follow them so it’s not a foul, but rather the regs to agreed to play by when you signed your name on the line of the FFL application. 
 

You can say I’m a dick, angry, or even anti gun all you want (that last one makes me laugh) but I’ve been in the NFA community for going on 15 years and I’ve seen it change quite a bit in that time. Sorry if you feel that the rules aren’t fair, but I’d rather play inside them as I have neither the time, money, or inclination to take on “the man” over something that the NRA sold us out on in 1986 and good ol Wayne never kept his promise to Reagan on. 

[Rekraps]

On 3/21/2024 at 5:41 AM, Got Uzi said:

Matt-you are right in your thought that gun owners are the ones who hurt other gun owners but you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Those who poke the bear or brag about finding “loop holes” in the system, play the system, or blatantly break the rules/law are the ones hurting the gun community. 
 

“Repeal the NFA” sounds great on paper until you realize it’s not going to work in your favor. Think about it like this-Congress looks at the notion of repealing it, but at the same time sees that the tax stamp has not been increased to adjust for inflation so your stamp went from $200 to $4666.56 per item. Also I hate to say this but but those who seem to scream “it’s my right” are typically the ones who can’t handle a semi auto Colt 6920, but yet seem to think they need an M16. Rights vs responsibility is the point here. 
 

“Gun show loop hole” gun owners love this one and YES it does exist boys and girls. I see it every month when I setup and sell at the one show i do, but it’s all over. Guys who are committing felonies every time they get a table as they are       “ actively engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms without a license” as they sell off their “private collection” while having signs on their table advertising that they buy guns and whole collections, or trying to buy everything that walks in the door then reselling it. No paperwork, no background checks, no traceability, just cash and carry. See where I’m going here? Meanwhile the people with the FFL’s are having more and more hoops to jump through added because of things like this. 
 

Arm braces-we all know what those were and are, a work around to the SBR/SBS ruling. No sympathy for anyone on that one as everyone knew exactly what was going on. 
 

Open carry with rifles at protests-great for giving the media more opportunity for pictures to be used later in spinning gun owners as a bunch of blood crazy killers.

 

Getting an SOT only to build a pile of post samples then dump it to cash out as “no law letter” items. This has become an epidemic in the NFA community in recent years. Again another reason I take concern with what I was asked at my latest audit/intnerview back in January of this year….hence my comments. 
 

“Post sample collections” see the previous statement then add to it this-it states in the FFL application that the FFL is not to “enhance one’s collection” as a reason for getting an FFL. That is also true for post samples. You are enhancing your collection by building or converting items that will never enter into commerce, and have no value as an LEO or Military weapon, nor as an item to do testing with for said reasons. It’s a personal play toy, plain and simple. Why do you think law letters are coming under fire so much now? For that exact reason….people playing the system to get play toys as a work around the law, using that “loop hole” and now here we are.
 

So yes, I guess I do have a bad attitude on the subject and yes, maybe I do have an condensing opinion towards issues going on, but you are correct Matt, in the end, gun owners are screwing themselves here and we have no one to blame but our lack of common sense and individual greed. 

Okay, nice follow up! I knew you would settle down. Your points are well supported and most likely agreed upon by many of us. 

I've always thought that the arm brace fiasco was silly, clearly a clever work around (as you mention) that did nothing but stoke the ire of the anti-gun establishment, and for good reason. What made it worse, is the indignation of our gun community when we were caught, falling back on the silly argument that "millions of disabled Americans" need them so they can shoot. BS. If there were 10 legitimately disabled vets or otherwise who actually needed and used the brace I'd be surprised.  I myself owned 12 "Brace" (i.e. SBR's) guns, which i subsequently registered with the ATF. But all in all, is was a well coordinated and supported trick that somehow made it by the ATF.

MTC.

[StrangeRanger]

On 3/19/2024 at 2:37 PM, StrangeRanger said:

I was under the impression that post-samples were intended purely for demonstration and sales to LE, DoD and similar. Has ATF ever clarified in writing whether they consider range rentals a legitimate reason for manufacturing or possessing post-samples? Or have they merely tolerated them?

So per the book I was correct?