mmo.85 Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 Hi Guys, I just got a West Hurley 1927 A1. Don't know much about these, but learning fast. I'm trying to date this gun. It says Auto-Ordnance Corp, West Hurley, NY USA Model of 1927 A1 no. 61X. Could this be the serial number? It also says Thompson Semi-Automatic Carbine CAL .45 Automatic Cartridge. I have 2 30 rd stick mags and a drum that I haven't loaded yet to see how many it holds. Was told it holds 100, we'll see after I load it. Any info would be great. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 Hi mmo.85, Welcome to MachineGunBooks.com. It appears you have an early 1927A1 Thompson. Click on the link below to find serial number information on West Hurley Thompsons. http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/tcn/1998/aug/aug98p3.htm If you will post the markings on the drum, I am sure someone here can tell you exactly what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmo.85 Posted April 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 TD. Thanks for the reply. I'll check out the mag and post what I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 Your gun was apparently manufactured the first year (1975) that Numrich started making the 1927-A1. If you get a chance, please post some pictures. I have been meaning to post an article I found from a January 1975 "American Firearms Industry" magazine that talks about the debut of the 1927-A1. Here it is: Magazine cover featuring 1927-A1: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/AFI_1-75.jpg Article on the debut of the 1927-A1: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/AFI_1-75_Numrich.jpg Here's an ad for the 1927-A1 that appeared in the magazine: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/AFI_1-75_M1927A1_Ad.jpg David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 I see a full auto M1a1 type lower. Be interesting to see the left side of those guns pictured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTodd Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 I have a WH 1927A1 with the serial #range of 311XX and the Serial # page doesn't go but to 28XXX. I don't know how accurate that page is. Mine is a deep blue and a beautiful weapon and shoots great. I've only shot it 25 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 TheTodd, The serial number list in the link does not include the last few years of production. Your gun was probably made around 1999. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 Of course that American Firearms promo ad posing as an article is riddled with inaccuracies and deceptions. Numrich was never sold the rights to the name "Thompson" or "Auto-Ordnance." The West Hurley 1927 A1 was not fitted with a real Lyman site or real Cutts compensator. Exactly which "original" Auto-Ord roll stampings did Numrich utilize? The ones that read "West Hurley, New York" or "Model Of 1927 A1?" The only major change was the 16 inch barrel? Ha! If only that were true. Lets see? M1/M1a1 type stock and frame on a 1928 type model. Closed bolt with out-sized bizarre cocking knob and impossible spring tension. Indifferent lining up of serial number stampings. Poor replica of Cutts and Lyman. But other than that, and of course the ridiculous 18 1/2" barrel, and the overall poor quality finish, it still has more in common with the Underwood typewriter than the famed gangster Chicago typewriter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 I am wondering why all of the photos show a "full-auto" type pivot plate. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 I'm kind of glad they didn't go with the 16' barrel mentioned in the article. 16" is much easier to wield. Yes, there were several inaccuracies in that article, but interesting nonetheless... David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Inaccuracies – yes. Deceptions – no, not at the listed price. George Numrich and his rights to all the assets of the Auto-Ordnance Division - “Numrich states that, since his company holds the patents, trademarks, etc. on the Thompson SMG, it is doubtful if any other company could produce a Thompson of any kind.†A published George Numrich quote in 1967. Only the Colt purists howl when George’s name comes up. Unfortunately for the purist, George and Company bought it all when no one else wanted anything to do with the Thompson. Arthur, as we have discussed before, follow the trail of the Blish pistol – it goes directly to George Numrich and Numrich Arms Corporation (NAC). Of course, we could spend a few pages rehashing this topic again… http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 All the early produced '27 Guns featured modified M1 TSMG Trigger Housings.. Sort of Old News though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 AF, We had a 27A1 in the vault a couple of years ago and it had an original Lyman on it. The guy said that he bought it brand new. This was before he became a felon and was converting AK's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Tman, I think that AO of WH did use real Lyman sights until they ran out of them. I have also seen very early 27A1s for sale that had real Lyman sights on them. Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Yes, all the early ones featured Original Lyman Rear Sights, before WH ran out of Stock prior to producing their own version... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Norm, T-Man, Devlin, The early ones? If that means that some, or all, of the 932 units from the first production year of 1975 had real Lyman's, then by 1976, they all had Numrich "specials" for rear sights. Why attempt to use any WWII parts in the first place if you knew they would never last through the entire production? Was it cheaper to use surplus parts? Of course, but it sure seemed that Numrich didn't invest the money he saved from using WWII parts during the first year when he manufactured his poor substitute ones for the subsequent twenty one years Trast made these pieces. TD, Not to rekindle the fires of controversy again, but oh Hell, why not. Why did Ole George wait until 1975, after buying the crates from Willis in 1951, to even manufacture his own full auto 1928 TSMG if production on the semi-auto 1927 A1 model was held up from 1967 because of ATF issues? Could it be that George had to wait out the patents on the Thompson name and the Auto-Ord name that ceased to exist in 1944? Thirty years seems about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 i had ordered in the first month of producton a semi 27 from them,serial number was #206,came with manual and 30 rd.stick plain cardboard box,the only new in box thompson i have ever seen,wink!! and it came with the lyman.and wood and finish was better then past one's i have seen and handled. i never fired it, and sold it that same year. the guy that bought it still has it. however he hung it over his fireplace for year's,it got sooty,and he never oiled it down, and over the year's it got patina,and cruddy looking,and i think after he fired it a few time's he never really cleaned it. so today 30 year's later i am sure it's a basket case. but what the heck i think he paid $500.00 for it. T.G. in it's finest form.with the drum 50 rd. good time's fond memorie's.... take care,ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Arthur, My understanding is that normal U.S. patents prior to 1995 expired 17 years from the patent grant date, so most of the Model of 1921 related patents would have expired around 1939 or so. My understanding of trademarks of the time was that they were originally issued for a term of 20 years. In your post, you referenced some expirations in 1944. I'm curious where the 1944 date came from. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Ploughboy Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Patents of the Thompson vintage were of 14 year duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 MP, Where did you find reference to a 14-year patent? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Dalbert, The 24 year figure is really just the time it took Numrich to actually manufacture a "Thompson" from the time he purchased the crates from Willis. I am using the 1944 date (the point from which 30 years went by before any new "Thompson" was manufactured) as the final year of existence of the Auto Ordnance Corporation before Maguire began the his new company the "Auto Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries," that had nothing to do with Thompson's at all. Yes, the "Thompson" bullet logo became public domain as well as the name "Auto-Ordnance" and any patents. Numrich merely revitalized the logo and name since it was there for the taking. He was not sold the original Auto Ordnance Corporation or the name "Thompson." But the fact that the name "Thompson," the bullet logo, and the name "Auto-Ordnance Corporation" appear on the WH firearms since 1975, these names could have been applied to any firearm claiming to be a Thompson after the 14, or 16, year period after 1944. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 And to think, Kahr ACTUALLY believed they were purchasing the original AO Corp in 1999, until...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Arthur, I don’t know why George waited before he started making what we now refer to as West Hurley Thompsons. Maybe he had run out of surplus receivers acquired with the 1951 purchase; maybe he had run out of import Thompsons and could not obtain anymore or import anymore into the United States; or perhaps he had many other irons in the fire making a lot more money. I recall in a prior post – see the Thread started by Kyle titled, “NAC ‘28a1 For Sale†– that we agreed that contained in the crates purchased by George Numrich was the former Auto-Ordnance Division of McGuire Industries, Inc. As we discussed before, it is uncontroverted that Kilgore paid $385,00 in 1949 to McGuire Industries with the published intent to resale Auto-Ordnance Division to the Egyptian government because Kilgore thought the Egyptian government wanted to manufacture the Thompson Submachine gun. This deal was done with future manufacturing stated as the pretext. Even today $385,000 is a lot of money; imagine what it represented in 1949. Do you really think Kilgore paid that type of money for a few crates of parts and old machinery? I am sure a contract was drafted. I expect it was a very simple contract assigning all rights to the Thompson from McGuire Industries to Kilgore. To take it one step further, given the amount of money involved, I am sure Kilgore would have expected the Egyptian government to have performed some type of due diligence prior to making any future deal. In addition, I have never heard anywhere that McGuire Industries retained any rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun or ever claimed any future rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun. The other transfers are easy. Willis got what Kilgore purchased. Willis was in or had been in the gun business. Willis certainly would have done some due diligence. And George Numrich certainly knew how to conduct business. Like McGuire Industries above, there is no indication that Kilgore or Willis would have wanted to retain any rights to the Thompson Submachine Gun when it left their respective hands. No, I don’t have the contracts. But I am not the one that has the problem with all the transfers or has the need to prove something. The lineage from Cleveland, Ohio to West Hurley, New York is complete. Follow the Blish pistol. George ended up with it - and everything else. As stated earlier in this thread, George was quoted as saying in 1967 that he owned all the rights. I have never heard anything that indicated George Numrich was anything other than an honest businessman. Given George Numrich’s statement back in 1967, I think it is safe to assume he acquired the complete Auto-Ordnance Division from Maguire Industries. The question of whether or not some or all of these rights expired or lapsed or became public domain while George was the owner of the former Auto-Ordnance Division of McGuire Industries, Inc. has nothing to do with the lineage of what General Thompson started in Cleveland, Ohio and ended up in West Hurley, New York in 1951. but I do enjoy the discussion…why don’t you come to the Thompson Collectors Show and Shoot in August and we can discuss it further with everyone over a cold one at the Granville Inn http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Sergeant Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Arther, ARe you saying the Thompson bullet logo is no longer protected? I had figured Kahr had the rights to it now. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 My understanding is that trademarks can be renewed, so more than likely the A-O and Thompson logos are protected, and I would assume now owned by Kahr. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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