L Drum Question

[Orion]

Gents,

Hello is this drum a 3rd model or a Pre-War WPS L drum, also what would be an approximate value in its condition?

 

Thanks, Andy

 

[jim c 351]

Orion,

Looks like a 1927 Stanley Tool.

Condition is pretty sad so it should go cheap.

Jim C

Edited January 5, 2017 by jim c 351

[TD.]

I am sure Roger will know for sure. Based on what appears to be a nickel rotor, I am going to guess a Worchester Pressed Steel L Drum, Version 1. Agree with Jim C regarding price because of condition. It would be an interesting acquisition for a display piece if the price was right.

[shadycon]

shooter grade??

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Orion,

Looks like a 1928 Stanley Tool.

Jim C

 

Sure enough.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14855&hl=%2Bstanley+%2Btool+%2Bdrum&do=findComment&comment=123183

Edited December 19, 2016 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I am sure Roger will know for sure. Based on what appears to be a nickel rotor, I am going to guess a Worchester Pressed Steel L Drum, Version 1. Agree with Jim C regarding price because of condition. It would be an interesting acquisition for a display piece if the price was right.

You mean the Roger (TSMG28) in the thread link below?

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13665&st=0&p=112951&hl=stanley&fromsearch=1&&do=findComment&comment=112951

 

Maybe Roger will now post a picture of the front face plate of his "NO" Stanley L drum.

Can't rely on replaceable rotors for drum manufacturer I.D., need to go by cover stampings.

[Orion]

Thanks for the input, If I have this correct from reading the link above its a 3rd model L drum. It's ugly but its a survivor anyone what to venture a guess on its value.

 

Thanks, Andy

[ppgcowboy]

If the price is right, you may want to get it for the rotor. There are NY drums that do not have the correct the rotor and this may do the trick. I cannot guess a price with my limited knowledge, but if you have it and find a drum that is need of a nickel rotor you may combine them to boost the value of another drum.

[rpbcps]

I have an almost identical L drum in my collection, in a little better condition which, after some research, I put it down as a pre war 'Worchester Pressed Steel drum', although I may be wrong.

 

​Stay safe

Richard

Edited December 21, 2016 by rpbcps

[jim c 351]

Richard,

If your back in town perhaps you could post a pic of your drum.

I've always been of the opinion that the order of drum manufactures went.

#1 John's Machine

#2 Stanley Tool

#3 Worchester Pressed Steel

The controversy comes at the transfer from Stanley to Worchester. Some are adverse to using the name "Stanley".

Of course, Arthur and I could be wrong, theoretically. But really, what are the odds of that.

Jim C

[OCM]

I have what be believe to be a Stanley L drum. We did some fairly good research on it as per the thread that was posted back when ( Dutch has it on post #5 here )

As I remember there was some pissing match between Stanley Tool Co as the subcontractor and they shut down abruptly . Doubt it being a Stanley L Drum has any effect on value, but more the interesting factor I guess.

 

OCM

[rpbcps]

Richard,

If your back in town perhaps you could post a pic of your drum.

I've always been of the opinion that the order of drum manufactures went.

#1 John's Machine

#2 Stanley Tool

#3 Worchester Pressed Steel

The controversy comes at the transfer from Stanley to Worchester. Some are adverse to using the name "Stanley".

Of course, Arthur and I could be wrong, theoretically. But really, what are the odds of that.

Jim C

 

Jim,

As requested, I have attached some photos I have just taken of mine. First photo was taken with flash, others without.

 

 

I paid £300 sterling for it, a good few years ago and keep it safe in my Gordon Herigstad Viola Case, #119. I am hoping to add a deactivated Model 1921 to that case in the future.... and one day, I may be lucky enough to find a C drum in the UK.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited December 21, 2016 by rpbcps

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I have an almost identical L drum in my collection, in a little better condition which, after some research, I put it down as a pre war 'Worchester Pressed Steel drum', although I may be wrong.

 

​Stay safe

Richard

Richard,

 

You are correct about it being of pre WWII WPS manufacture. Your back cover is identical to what Tracie Hill says is a 3rd generation WPS L drum. Your front plate is identical to what Hill says is Stanley Tool "NO" L drum, but is also identical to the front plate of 3rd generation WPS L drum minus the "WIND TO 9 CLICKS" stamping below the winding key. Your blued rotor is also found on WPS L drums.

 

In the thread below, owners of Stanley "NO" L drums report that their front cover is the same as Orion's.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13219&page=2&hl=%2Bstanley+%2Bdrum+%2Bcolt+%2Bthompson&do=findComment&comment=109554

 

To make matters more confusing, in the machinegunboards pinned box and drum guide, your front cover is identical to a 1st pattern WPS L drum without the "WIND TO 9 CLICKS" stamping.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[jim c 351]

Arthur,

Do you agree with the following statement,----

 

"A New York address, 3rd model "L" drum and the Stanley Tool drum are one and the same???"

 

This could simplify the subject.

 

Jim C

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

Do you agree with the following statement,----

 

"A New York address, 3rd model "L" drum and the Stanley Tool drum are one and the same???"

 

This could simplify the subject.

 

Jim C

 

Affirmative. Similar to Clark Kent & Superman. Still those pesky glasses managed to fool many denizens of Metropolis.

[rpbcps]

 

Arthur,

Do you agree with the following statement,----

 

"A New York address, 3rd model "L" drum and the Stanley Tool drum are one and the same???"

 

This could simplify the subject.

 

Jim C

 

Affirmative. Similar to Clark Kent & Superman. Still those pesky glasses managed to fool many denizens of Metropolis.

 

Arthur/ Jim,

Thank you for both your posts.

 

I referenced my copy of 'The Ultimate Thompson Book', to identify my L Drum.

 

One minor difference between the Stanley and WPS drums, identified in the book on page 560, and shown in the photos on the same page is the Stanley drum, although not having serial numbers, still has the letters 'NO.' on the rear face plate below the patent details.

 

According to the book, WPS removed the letters 'NO' from their face plates, so it was from this information that I identified my L drum as a 1st Generation WPS L Drum.

 

Merry Christmas to all Forum members and let us hope 2017 is kind to us all.

 

Richard

[OCM]

The one I have, has the numbers stamped on the inside, also identified my another Stanley owner , with the same, but different numbers. No idea why-

 

OCM

[jim c 351]

Richard,

When Johns machine shipped all their drum tooling to Stanley , it appears a bunch of rear face place were included that were stamped with "NO".

It would make sense that these perfectly good plates would be used up before new dies would be made. But when new dies were needed the "NO" was omitted from the dies, or if the dies were still good , then the "NO" would be ground of before proceeding.

 

I think that my best friend, TD, believes that when Stanley ran out the plates with the "NO" they quit making drums

 

Arthur and I believe that when the old rear plate ran out, Stanley omitted the "NO" and continued making drums.

Perhaps we should do a poll.

Merry Christmas Richard

Jim C

[rpbcps]

Richard,

When Johns machine shipped all their drum tooling to Stanley , it appears a bunch of rear face place were included that were stamped with "NO".

It would make sense that these perfectly good plates would be used up before new dies would be made. But when new dies were needed the "NO" was omitted from the dies, or if the dies were still good , then the "NO" would be ground of before proceeding.

 

I think that my best friend, TD, believes that when Stanley ran out the plates with the "NO" they quit making drums

 

Arthur and I believe that when the old rear plate ran out, Stanley omitted the "NO" and continued making drums.

Perhaps we should do a poll.

Merry Christmas Richard

Jim C

 

Jim,

That is an interesting theory.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[TSMG28]

Orion/Andy,

 

You drum is definitely a first version Worcester Pressed Steel pre-WWII drum, circa 1928. The faceplate markings and silvered rotor confirm that. An excellent condition drum typically goes for ~$1,000, but in the condition of yours, I would guess yours is closer to $700. That said, yours is the most common drum encountered with Colt guns other than the numbered L-drums.

 

Richard,

 

The pics of your drum are not clear, but based on features I can make out, your drum is a second version Worcester Pressed Steel pre-WWII drum, circa 1929-30. The second version shifted to a blued rotor and modified the markings on the rear faceplate. Yours appears to be in nice shape, and the price you paid is good based on prices we see on this side of the pond.

 

All,

 

My Stanley drum and first version Worcester drum do indeed have the same front faceplate. My Stanley drum markings are identical to those shown in actual pics in the referenced thread above. I do not agree that the Stanley drums simply used left-over back faceplates from John's, because I don't know of any information that we have that supports that theory. Stanley did change the front faceplate, so I suspect it is more likely that they simply used the existing dies to make their own rear faceplate. Tracie has documentation about the tooling being moved both to Stanley and then to Worcester, but I don't know anything about left over parts being moved.

 

Regards,

Roger

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

My Stanley drum and first version Worcester drum do indeed have the same front faceplate. My Stanley drum markings are identical to those shown in actual pics in the referenced thread above.

 

Regards,

Roger

 

@Roger

 

Perhaps now you will post a photo of your Stanley "NO" L drum front cover and board members can then see how it is different from other board members Stanley L drum front covers. Tracie may indeed have documentation about the tooling being moved from Stanley to WPS, but where are photos of the actual stamps Stanley used on their "NO" front plates?

[Orion]

Roger thanks for the clarification.

 

Andy

[TSMG28]

Andy,

 

You're welcome.

 

Arthur,

 

Here are the pics of my Stanley drum. As I indicated in my previous post on this thread, my markings are not different from the pics of the other members' Stanley drums in the referenced August 2011 thread "Not Mine.....". As to the Stanley front faceplate tooling pics, I will leave it to you to provide those to support your position about what Stanley produced.

 

 

 

 

[darrylta]

Roger has forgot more than I know about Thompson drums for sure.

 

I've always thought the Colt era drums were:

 

Ist Gen = numbered covers with a somewhat polished plated rotor

2nd Gen = NO: non numbered covers with the same rotor as the 1st Gen

3rd Gen = None numbered covers with a muted flat plated rotor

 

I never got into the manufacturer thing and really didn't care :-)

 

The C drums have the same polished plated rotor finish as the 1st Gen L drums.

FWIW,

Darryl

[jim c 351]

Roger,

If I understand your opinion correctly, the only difference between your posted Stanley drum and the 1st model Worcester drum posted above are the letters NO on the rear cover.

 

It would be impossible to have a Stanley drum without the letters NO, correct???

Since this is contrary to Doug Richardson book on drum magazines, was Dougs opinion ever proven incorrect???

Thanks for posting the pics.

 

My drum looks exactly like yours except the letters NO are not stamped on my drum.

Doug identified my drum as a Stanley, so I guess Doug needed to do more research.

Jim C