Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 Arthur,Can you list the location or collection and caliber of the five known T2 prototypes? Location? No. Caliber would be at least one or two in 9mm and three in .45. Frank Iannimico in his Small Arms Review article said: "The open-bolt-operated T-2 was made from sheet metal stampings and had a receiver that was constructed from metal tubing. Weight of the T-2 with an empty magazine was 8.6 pounds." Did AOC make open and closed bolt T-2 prototypes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 I think maybe you guys are underestimating the value of the gun a little. I think that it would be worth considerably north of the value of a typical Colt Thompson. It's an American WWII submachine gun prototype by a iconic American gunmaker. It was submitted and tested by the bureau of ordnance. That makes it a bona-fide piece of history and it is a 1st tier collectible. It would be far more valuable if it had gone into production, but it still says "Thompson" on the side. That is the kind of gun that gets purchased by the guy who already has a room full of high end collector guns and wants something exotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 If mr. thompson had something to actually do with the gun i think it would be worth $99k....sad that AO used his name, but built a pos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 It doesn't look like a "POS" to me It's a typical tube gun with a clever trigger mechanism and an advanced (closed bolt) type of operation With some further development, it might have been an excellent weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 It's an American WWII submachine gun prototype by a iconic American gunmaker. It was submitted and tested by the bureau of ordnance. That makes it a bona-fide piece of history and it is a 1st tier collectible. William Hammond is an "iconic gunmaker"? The name "THOMPSON" is certainly iconic, but it became iconic long before WWII. The T2's only connection to the TSMG design is the name "THOMPSON" stamped on the receiver. Why isn't the receiver stamped "THE HAMMOND SUBMACHINE GUN T2" ? The answer is the Ordnance Committee wouldn't be impressed by a guy named Hammond, but would give significant props to an entry with the name "THOMPSON" stamped on the tube. The T2 was submitted for testing and upon conclusion of the tests the Ordnance Committee recommended that the experimental entry be rejected from consideration. That makes it another failed firearm design that is collectable for being a failed firearm design. If collectors are seeking a WWII prototype replacement for the TSMG that actually led to mass production and had a 30+ service life then the T-15 prototype for the M3 Grease Gun would qualify as a $100K(+) investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhunter Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 It does not seem like collecting full autos is very popular with the super elite....... my point being I can turn on any auto auction any day of the week and watch them pay 300-1M for collector cars day after day. If full autos were a status symbol like that we'd see a very different price structure. I don't think 100K is out of line at all. I do think it will take the guy with a couple Ferraris In The garage and a million dollar vacation home to throw down the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) As would Edited July 19 by johnsonlmg41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 It doesn't look like a "POS" to me It's a typical tube gun with a clever trigger mechanism and an advanced (closed bolt) type of operation With some further development, it might have been an excellent weapon. i only use the term POS because of how badly it did in testing.....it is not a gun you would want to defend yourself with... its a gun to look at...its a failure...both in testing and actual function...it broke after a few hundred rounds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) It's an American WWII submachine gun prototype by a iconic American gunmaker. It was submitted and tested by the bureau of ordnance. That makes it a bona-fide piece of history and it is a 1st tier collectible. William Hammond is an "iconic gunmaker"? The name "THOMPSON" is certainly iconic, but it became iconic long before WWII. The T2's only connection to the TSMG design is the name "THOMPSON" stamped on the receiver. Why isn't the receiver stamped "THE HAMMOND SUBMACHINE GUN T2" ? The answer is the Ordnance Committee wouldn't be impressed by a guy named Hammond, but would give significant props to an entry with the name "THOMPSON" stamped on the tube. The T2 was submitted for testing and upon conclusion of the tests the Ordnance Committee recommended that the experimental entry be rejected from consideration. That makes it another failed firearm design that is collectable for being a failed firearm design. If collectors are seeking a WWII prototype replacement for the TSMG that actually led to mass production and had a 30+ service life then the T-15 prototype for the M3 Grease Gun would qualify as a $100K(+) investment. There are a bunch of factors that make a gun valuable to collectors. Like rarity, excellent fit and finish, iconic design, unusual design, association with a famous historical event, famous gunmaker, etc. Here we have a prototype that hits on several of those factors. It was submitted by a famous gun company (AO) for US military weapon trials during a famous event (WWII). Most gun collectors who pick up this T2 will say, "Gee whiz, this was submitted during WWII by Auto Ordnance, they made the Thompson! That's nifty! What an interesting gun!" They won't sit and ponder for 4 hours how to come up with some way to despise it and disassociate it from Auto Ordnance. Edited March 30, 2017 by buzz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normal1959 Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 This will look cheap in the near future. Too many guns to mention that i should have bought. They are now 5 times the value when i saw them.Sorry, had to add inflation to the argument.Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) Having lived in CA in the bay area and attended college on and off, from 1962 until 1970, and also being an MG nut, I went to lots of gun shows. The presence of MGs at these shows varied considerably, but one might find piles of MG parts, disassembled MGs especially Stens, DEWATs and registered MGs. Usually there would be a Thompson, grease gun, MP40, MP28, and other types of smgs if the vendor was a bit into MGs. The first Colt Thompson I recall ever handling was a DEWAT, at one of these shows, probably '63 or '64 and it was $45.00, in fair condition and the vendor was proud to call it a "genuine gangster gun". Of course, it felt great to hold and my imagination ran wild. At a show in Reno, NV shortly after, there was a table full of MGs, with a selection of live, registered Thompsons with prices from $50 up with the cheap ones being M1s and several Colts for $75 or higher. These Thompsons were in quite well used condition, but I recall the compensators on the Colts so they were ACs. The vendor was from Vegas I believe, because in 1970 and later I bought some Colt '21 parts from him. Ron Rudin, if I recall correctly who owned Vegas Gun Traders or something like that. The first registered M1 that I purchased was $75, plus the tax of course, but that's not part of actual purchase price. One of the most influential forces pushing the collectibility of MGs was J. C. Earl of Phoenix, AZ who I heard about in the late 1960s who put out a sales booklet brimming with enthusiasm and pictures of collector MGs. He was the Barnum of MGs, selling the entertainment and collector value of MGs, and in my opinion, did a lot to fire the escalation of MG prices, especially registered MGs. Registered MGs were a very hard sell at the shows I went to during those years simply because of the $200 transfer tax. Fairly often I heard the comment, "why would you pay the government $200 just to own that piece of junk?". I would and when I could afford to, eventually, I did!! Even gun vendors with registered MGs for sale often were not very familiar with the federal laws on MGs. No one ever told me that I could legally reactivate the several DEWATs I owned at the time, pre-GCA'68, and register them for free! I recall one dealer telling me that the $200 had to be paid every year. Truly the "good old days" for sure!! Edited March 29, 2017 by Black River Militaria CII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) I'm trying to think of what the most valuable transferrable machine gun is now, I'm guessing the FG42 One of those sold for $299,000 at auction. Wonder what the price history is on it? Probably changed hands for $200 at some point. I think that MGs are well into the elite rich-guy collector price range now. When you see a high end collection sell at auction, who is buying those $50,000 Winchester repeaters and $15,000 cowboy pistols? It's not the ham-and-egg gunbroker crowd. Rich people buy those kind of guns. That's the price range that a lot of MGs are in now. Edited March 29, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 Transferable 7.62X51mini-guns are valued way above FGs…… There are about 80 FG42 2nd models in the US, with the majority registered. Less than half that number of registered 1st models, so neither is radically scarce compared to other vintage and modern MGs in the NFRTR. Here are some examples of original C+R MGs of interest to me that I have tracked over many years and have verified: 9 C+R Brit military issue Vickers; 7 C+R 1910 Russian Maxims; 2 C+R 1905 Russian Maxims; 1 original factory Hotchkiss Universal SMG; 2 C+R ZB39 Czechoslovakian BRNO made Brens; 2 C+R MG30 LMGs; 6 C+R Russian RPDs, with about 40 of all transfer status'; There are many other very scarce MGs with under 25 examples in the NFRTR, but the evident driver of value of course is romantic popularity, not especially scarcity. For a collectors' item that is such a PIA to acquire, MGs certainly have lofty values! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 I think that MGs are well into the elite rich-guy collector price range now. The Mac series $5-8k.....an average man can afford that...toss on a $900 Lage upper and other than the trigger you have an awesome gun....i will soon have 5 different uppers for my Mac 10/45.....2 -45s, 2 9mm and a .22lr....maybe within 2-3 years a .223ar upper...... the cheap mans gun is the most fun and versatile FA on the market..... I have just as much fun with my $6,000 Mac 10 as i do with my Thompson...maybe more because of all the conversions i can do.... The FA market is almost a rich mans only hobby.....i suspect the Reisling will always be $5,000...maybe $5,500 in 10 years Macs====i think will rise as a % more than any other in the future.......now is the golden era to get one for $6k!!!....they may move up to UZI price range at some point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Ploughboy Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 my point was in 1943 (or whenever) a closed bolt FA was not the norm....why try when your competition isnt....guess they saw it as an advantage, but then were too stupid to actually shoot their gun before handing it to the government for testing....if it were me i would have shot 10,000 rounds through it before i considered handing it overReisings, designed in 1940 and manufactured from 1941 until WWII ended in 1945, are closed bolt, delayed blowback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) When you think about number of guns in the registry, I wonder which generic model has the highest number available. Is it Sten tube guns, MACs, UZIs or Reisings? I suppose availability will always keep the prices lower on these. If you think Reisings will always be $5k you may better look closer into the market. They were easily had for $3500 a few years ago, I should have bought the one Frank I offered to me. Severely underappreciated and misunderstood. I shot one once, now I have one in purgatory. Will they surpass MACs? Doubtful as the MAC holds a certain historical ambiance much like a Tec 9 or other symbolic 80s drug dealer guns. I like MACs too and would love to have an early Ingram, however for a similar price to a Reising, I'll take the Reising as I have that certain fit and finish thing that I appreciate. As notoriety often lifts the value of guns, we should likely have another look at the past life of this specific T2! I like the gun but it's going to be a long road to sell as the market is really, really small for a gun like this. Rare? Yes. Desirable? Not as much. Ron Edited March 30, 2017 by ron_brock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 i considered buying a Reising once...then i noticed i could not find 1 you tube video of it shooting w/o jamming the mac is the only machine gun i can think of that can be converted to 5-7 different guns right now by swapping uppers.... the Reising isnt that cool looking (i think its decent, but most younger people wouldnt)...and it has the mag shortage... someone needs to take a few you tube video's of it actually functioning more than 10 rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwiifirearms Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 Neal Smith had a table full of Reisings in police cases at the last OGCA. I think they were $9k (maybe $8k). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 Neal Smith had a table full of Reisings in police cases at the last OGCA. I think they were $9k (maybe $8k). They were $9K each. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelkih Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 Bob, I love hearing your stories of "back in the day". Machine guns at gunshows in California. Definitely better times, that I wish I didn't miss out on. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelkih Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 Bob, You shoulda bought that DEWAT Colt Thompson for $45 in 1962. That's equal to $362 now. I'd say that was a fair price! Haha. Oh it's so painful to hear these prices now!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 i considered buying a Reising once...then i noticed i could not find 1 you tube video of it shooting w/o jamming the mac is the only machine gun i can think of that can be converted to 5-7 different guns right now by swapping uppers.... the Reising isnt that cool looking (i think its decent, but most younger people wouldnt)...and it has the mag shortage... someone needs to take a few you tube video's of it actually functioning more than 10 roundsHere's a few with no jams: Magazines can be had here:http://www.keystonearms.com/handrreising.aspx Just sayin' don't believe everything you see on the internet. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
full auto 45 Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 The Reising. Can't wait for mine to get out of lockup. That Frank guy is so rough with his old guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 I like Reisings. It is a bad ass little gun. The collector value is probably hurt by the poor operational record in the Pacific. Something like that takes away a lot of the romanticism that makes these guns valuable. Huggy, I don't know why you'd think that the value on them will flatline. In 2010, you could find them for $4500 all day long. Since they are north of $7000 now, that's a minimum annual appreciation of around 7.5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) By the way, What I write on this website is offered up in the spirit of friendly chit-chat. So don't waste any of your mental energy getting annoyed. It's all in good fun as they say. I tend to be a real careful about factual data, but a topic like this one is purely subjective. Technically, there is no wrong answer to what dollar value that you personally assign to this T2. Of course it would be kind of goofy if you said $100 or $100,000,000,000. I'm thinking that $99k is high. If it was a prototype of an adopted weapon like the M3 greaser, it might fetch that. But as it is, it's more of a curiosity than anything else. Kind of like those M16s that show up that have that weird mount system for the Bradley vehicle portholes. Nobody really wants the things but they still sell to the m16 fanatics for around $30k. Some high end collector who owns 25 Thompsons will come along and shell out $30k (maybe) for the T2. Edited March 30, 2017 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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