Salisbury, NC Sheriff Selling Colt '28 Navy #3694

[Melvin]

3482 - Overstamp

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/koalak_2006/DSCN4517.jpg

 

[Melvin]

3482 - Also I will be putting this out for sale in the next month or Two.

 

 

 

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/koalak_2006/DSCN4521-1.jpg

 

[TD.]

Someone make a note that Arthur Fliegenheimer and Tracie Hill may agree about something

 

Thanks Chuck. I am sure everyone appreciates the close-up pictures of the British markings.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Someone make a note that Arthur Fliegenheimer and Tracie Hill may agree about something

 

Now that you are on the record on this board contesting information reported in TUTB by Tracie Hill you will of course confront Hill via US Mail, TATA Shows, NRA Conventions and OGCA meetings, yes? By your own rules of engagement (see below) that is the only possible course of action when you challenge statements of Tracie Hill.

 

I would always take the word of an unknown internet personality over a noted researcher and author that is quite accessible via the US mail, TATA Shows, NRA Conventions, and OGCA meetings.

 

 

Arthur,

I am interested in the reasoning behind your comments. If you are going to publicly criticize someone's published work, at least tell the Board what you are basing your thoughts on. I am pretty sure Hill owns many of the drums pictured in TUTB; the documentation he has can be weighed by the pound.

 

 

Arthur,

Showing us what you believe is wrong with a noted researcher and authors work without any thing to back up your position is pretty worthless

 

 

To continue with your proper decorum for contesting info as written by Hill in TUTB, you must provide evidence to support your conclusions right here on this board, not in some future edition of SAR.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Lets see how the conversation would go. Tracie, Arthur agrees with you that some Colt Thompson's are marked with British markings. While you don't say in TUTB the British came to AOC in the USA and marked a few guns, Arthur's logic indicates this has to be what happened in 1940 - when the British were in the market for the Thompson gun. Do you agree with Arthur's logic?

 

Of course, we have one of these British marked guns, NO 3344, that was purchased by the Atlanta Police Department and registered with the IRS in 1934. And another Atlanta PD gun with a close serial number, NO 3482, that is on the NFA Registry and is also British marked. Then we have NO 3004, from the West Point , Georgia, Police Department that was also British marked. Gordon states NO 3004 and two other Colt's were purchased to deal with the labor strikes at the West Point Manufacturing Company textile mills in 1934. The other two Colt's are not in the same serial number range and there is no mention of British Proofs on these two Colt's. The last known Colt with British proofs is the one that started this thread, NO 3694, also in the same serial number range as the three above. No definitive information is known about the history of this gun.

 

If I was interested in resolving this issue, I would look at the "born on date" on the NFA Registry for three remaining Colt's with British marks. I believe it will show all these guns were in the armories of several law enforcement organizations long before World War II. However, I encourage you to check with Doug or Gordon to see what you can find and report back. Or write a story setting forth the results of your research. Keep in mind the number of Colt's remaining in AOC inventory after the Swedish purchase in late January 1940. My latest SAR story addresses this point. While not definitive, it is based on documentation and will give the readers some real facts to ponder. If you cannot afford to purchase the premier Class Three magazine in the marketplace... well, enough said.

 

From my standpoint it appears the number of Colt's with British markings is less than 10. The British markings on all know Colt's (referenced above) appear different than what is found on early Savage Thompson's that were sold to the British in 1940 during cash and carry, i.e., no British Broad Arrow markings. This in and of itself is certainly an indication of something.

 

What is it you want me to ask Tracie?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Lets see how the conversation would go. Tracie, Arthur agrees with you that some Colt Thompson's are marked with British markings. While you don't say in TUTB the British came to AOC in the USA and marked a few guns, Arthur's logic indicates this has to be what happened in 1940 - when the British were in the market for the Thompson gun. Do you agree with Arthur's logic?

 

 

What is it you want me to ask Tracie?

 

I would suggest first getting a firm grasp of the issue before engaging Tracie Hill in this imaginary conversation. That some Colt TSMGs have British markings is obviously not where you have departed from what Hill states in TUTB. You say that if a Colt TSMG has these markings they had to have been done in England. Hill says that is not the case for all Colt TSMG's with British markings. Hill says that even Colt TSMGs that remained in the USA (i.e., were never shipped to England ever) have British markings. Hill does not provide any dates where this occurred. This is what I posted earlier:

 

While Hill does not say there were British inspectors at AOC in 1940, logic dictates that in order for a Colt TSMG to have British proofs without leaving the Continental U.S., representatives from England had to be proofing these Colt TSMGs at AOC.

 

The question that you are having trouble composing to Hill is rather simple. Here it is: Hey Tracie, exactly how would a Colt TSMG have British markings if the firearm remained in the USA all of its life? If he answers with any other explanation other than these markings were applied in the USA by British inspectors than you can comeback to the board and explain what Tracie meant to say in TUTB. What could be simpler?

 

BTW: Since the British markings on the barrel of the Colt 1921 TSMG I posted from TUTB indicates a date of 1926, why are you limiting the date to 1940?

[TD.]

You or anyone else that wants to approach Tracie Hill with a question are more than welcome to do it. Actually, I encourage it. I would suggest first joining The American Thompson Association and starting a dialog with him at the All Thompson Show & Shoot or via a letter. It is not uncommon for Tracie to spend time with the membership explaining things that appear in all his books. The lecture this year at the Show on AOC gages was one of the most informative ever. That information is not available anywhere else.

 

I believe I have pretty well covered my hypothesis on how I believe these few Colt's received British markings. However, I encourage you to take whatever path you deem proper to resolve this question. May I suggest that you first determine the interest of the British in the Thompson gun in the 1920's and 30's. I don't believe you will find enough interest that would warrant sending someone from the Proof House in Birmingham to America to inspect a warehouse full of guns. But I am open on this. You will find in Gordon's book that 25 Colt's were exported to England between 1921 and 1925, some directly to the AOC agent in England, B.S.A. Guns, Ltd. I believe Gordon obtained this information from Tracie as I have inspected some of the original AOC export papers in Tracie's collection. Chapter 11 of the The Ultimate Thompson Book also explains how Auto-Ordnance approached Birmingham Small Arms Ltd in 1925 for help in developing what would turn out to be called the B.S.A. Thompson guns. The possibility of AOC providing B.S.A. a few Thompson guns for evaluation and testing in the beginning of this venture to develop a Thompson like gun in a European caliber would seem to be a normal course of action. Of course, this venture was a commercial failure and appeared to end toward the end of the 1920's. Since some/all of these B.S.A. guns ended up on the American NFA Registry and are transferable, it is also safe to assume they were shipped back to AOC in the USA. This shipment(s) would be a perfect time to return any other AOC property no longer needed, i.e., Colt's Thompson guns, originally sent to B.S.A. at the beginning of this venture. While I agree what I have put forth is conjecture, it is surrounded by documented facts. Your hypothesis is not surrounded by anything.

 

I do not want you to think I am spending my Sunday morning going over all of this for your benefit. I want the members of this forum to understand the thought process that takes place when someone engaged in original research decides to explore something that happened a long time ago - with the goal of adding more documented history to our beloved Thompson gun. What you will never understand is these decisions are often based on information discovered during research for other projects and not found in any current publication. The number of Colt's with these types of British markings is now at four. If you locate a few more I may be inclined to look at this issue again. Currently, I believe the born on date in the NFA Registry along with my recount of documented Thompson history answers most questions. But please reach out to Tracie should you not be satisfied. When you discover something not already in print, you will get my attention.

 

All good stuff!

[colt21a]

<p>I had at least four with brit marking one 1921 and at least two navie's. out of over 100 plus Colts. so there is far more then four out there. one went to a dealer in Texas. the others out east.one two digit gun for sure.so at this time I would say the FOUR is not written in tablets of Stone. mainly if we already have seen a few numbers already...all it takes is the owners of all the Colts I sold to come forward over the past forty years and show the guns..however I do know for sure at least five of the guys have past away. so who knows whats were.good luck in all the research. Ron</p>

<p> </p>

<p>p.s. I also know the history on how Tracy obtained a ton of that info a retired A.O.employee contacted me over a decade ago.From one of my Thompson add's in the 70's..way before many got started in the Thompson Game..well to make it short Hal Spiro supplied the info through my contact. he picked the boxes up at Knob Creek.{ along with many photo's} and law enforce letters and repair order's..Hal is now gone.and Dave from d&s can confirm.since he was there when I left the tables at the show..I am glad the stuff was never tossed and lost to a history we would never know. The last of my items is getting shipped next week, and one more pile, then that's it. Somebody else can write the book.and have fun with all of it.</p>

Edited November 17, 2013 by colt21a

[eleyarms]

For what it's worth, I bought this gun at auction from Rowan County on September 30, 2016 for $37,850 but would have gone a lot higher. It's in terrific shape and, yes, we have shot it. I took it to the Ohio Gun Collectors show in July 2017 and let the Thompson group look and take pix of the British proof marks. I have since found an early New York mismatched serialized drum. Any comments or questions can be directed to me at guns@eleyarms.com. --Jim Eley, Columbus OH

[eleyarms]

For what it's worth, I bought this gun at auction from Rowan County on September 30, 2016 for $37,850 but would have gone a lot higher. It's in terrific shape and, yes, we have shot it. I took it to the Ohio Gun Collectors show in July 2017 and let the Thompson group look and take pix of the British proof marks. I have since found an early New York mismatched serialized drum. Any comments or questions can be directed to me at guns@eleyarms.com. --Jim Eley, Columbus OH

[rpbcps]

To throw a spanner in the works, rather belated looking at the dates on the original postings, I believed that the London and Birmingham proof house marks were only added to none military guns, i.e. weapons sold to and owned by civilians.

 

British (& Commonwealth), military weapons were stamped with the British 'Broad Arrow', together with the relevant Woolwich or Enfield arsenal inspection stamps.

 

and a rather faint Woolwich stamp on a well used Savage Model of 1928 in my collection.

 

 

The Broad Arrow, when stamped as an opposing pair, denotes official disposal or ‘sold out of service’, seen here on a Model of 1928 breech block, the 2nd mark is the proof house deactivation stamp.

 

 

Opposing pair of Broad arrows also shown on the stock of a Martini Henry in my collection, if you can spot them!

 

 

Incidentally, (and off topic), I read that the broad arrow was also used by the British to mark trees in North America during colonial times, that were intended for ship building use. Three axe strikes, resembling an arrowhead and shaft, were marked on large mast grade trees and it was forbidden for anyone to chop down trees with the mark. A 'rule' often ignored and occasionally the felled trees were sold to the French and Spanish. So Acts of Parliament were passed in 1711, 1722 and 1772, (Timber for Navy Act 1772), to attempt to protect the trees and these resulted in the Pine Tree Riot in 1772, again I read that this recorded as one of the first acts of rebellion, a year before the Boston Tea Party.

 

However I digress, although I love history.

A lot of lugers etc. brought back as war souvenirs had commercial proof marks added too them, back in the day when us Brits could be trusted with guns by our government

 

Below you can see the Birmingham Commercial proof house stamps on the barrel and receiver of a Dutch Contract Parabellum in my collection. Also on the receiver are the Dutch crown /W proof stamp and the British proof house deactivation stamp in the centre.

 

 

My 'early' Savage 1928, also has the Birmingham commercial proof house markings on the barrel and receiver, which would have been added when released from military service and sold on the civilian market, modified to fire on semi auto only. These remained legal for civilians to own & use, prior to the restrictions brought in the UK Firearms (amendment) Act 1988.

 

The above Birmingham Nitro Proof, (BNP), stamps were used between 1954 and 1989.

 

So, if those Colt Thompsons have British commercial Proof house marks, maybe Tom is correct in assuming they were guns, once sent to BSA?

Stay safe
Richard

Edited July 22, 2017 by rpbcps

[rpbcps]

A few more details added in the 'edit' of previous post

 

stay safe

Richard

[full auto 45]

Jim, I was at the OGCA last week and did not see you or the gun. Did I miss you? I stayed mainly at the opposite end of Tracie. I was keeping an eye on Colt Chopper and TD. It was kind of like herding cats.

It looks like a very nice and clean gun. Congratulations. And welcome to the boards, there's some great stuff to learn here, and lots you will wish you never heard.

[eleyarms]

Yes, I was at the last OGCA show. I was set up in aisle B. Tom Davis had the opportunity to photograph the proof marks and I also brought the gun to the 26th Annual Shoot at Tracie Hill's.