1928A1 Lend Lease Thompson S-213831

[firearm]

Just got this 28A1 Lend Lease weapon in. Needs a good scrubbing but I wanted to get some jpegs shot up 1st. Curious as to what you RKI's think. In looking at some past post, some think that Lend Lease weapons aren't all that rare. Maybe it's just what came my way over the years, but very few have come through my books. Thus, I consider, them somewhat rare. Then again, maybe just luck of the draw.

 

Lower is matching. Barrel and bolt are Savage. Alignment mark does not match. Note there is a small "o" stamped just to the right of the alignment mark. I also wanted to point out that the sling swivel is mounted on the right side of the grip and not the left. Can't tell if the front grip is worn or has been sanded down. Lots of pics attached. Your 2 cents appreciated.

Edited June 9, 2022 by firearm

[firearm]

Here is a shot of the rear stock. It looks like someone plugged up the re-enforcement screw holes on the right side of the butt stock. Can't tell if they took them out and then filled them in or simply covered them up. Also, a shot of the sling swivel patch on the bottom of the stock. The 3 pics of the sling that came off the weapon don't seem to tell much. I have tried all different angles and lighting but can't make out much of the lettering. I can see the word "LTD" and a date which I think is 1944, but I am not sure. More pics attached.

Edited June 9, 2022 by firearm

[Gnat]

I'm curious about the "TOMMY GUN' stamping on top of the receiver. Is that typical for lend lease Thompsons?

Awesome find!

Gnat

[Countryboy77]

The "Tommy Gun" marking is somewhat rare and was added a short time for trademark protection purposes.Is it a Fully Transferrable ? All in all nice gun.How much did you pay if you dont mind being asked?

[firearm]

It is transferable and I brought it into stock to resell.

[Autorotate]

What is the asking price?

[TSMG28]

Firearm,

 

Looks like a very nice example of a British proofed and modified gun with all of the right marks. It is very similar to my first Thompson, which is also British proofed. Overall finish looks original. The proofed barrel is a big plus. Many of these guns got dewatted in the 1950's when they came into the country, which generally meant the barrel was made non-functional and was later scrapped when the gun was rewatted.

 

The swivel on the right side of the foregrip is typical. Even though the formal instructions were to place the swivel on the left side, it appears that the side chosen differed depending on the person doing the work and/or the one requesting it. I have seen a number of both horizontal and vertical foregrips with the swivel on either side.

 

The sling date looks to me to be 1943, which would be closer to the issue date of this gun, which was likely 1942 or late 1941. Of course, slings wore out or were damaged, and got replaced periodically, so a later date is still fine. The Savage knurled safety and selector are a nice touch.

 

I am also interested in what price you will be putting on this gun.

[TD.]

firearm,

This is a nice World War II Savage Thompson with what appears to be original dulite finish and a British Enfield inspection mark along with a Broad Arrow mark on the receiver nose. All the U.S. markings appear correct, i.e., RLB, GEG, Ordnance flaming bomb, TOMMY GUN, etc. Given the serial number and British markings, it most likely is a Lend-Lease Thompson that went to the British military.

 

I would guess this was an INTERARMS (or like company) import in the 1960s. A Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request would tell the tale with the earliest form probably being a Form 2. I do believe the barrel has been changed sometime during the past because of the slight misalignment of the index markings and oval marking between the barrel collar and first fins. That said, it appears to be a nice Savage marked barrel. I would guess the barrel and compensator have a bright blue finish that does not match the dull dulite finish on the receiver. The markings on the top of the barrel are commercial London proof marks that happened after this Savage left military service. To me, that would indicate the barrel change happened prior to import. I agree with TSMG28 that this Savage was probably never a dewat. A barrel change on a World War II Thompson usually does not impact value as long as a properly marked barrel was used.

 

Given the serial number, I do believe a prior owner probably upgraded the paddle fire control levers to the earliest Savage knurled type. I view this as a positive as early Savage knurled fire control levers are hard to find and expensive when found. And look great!

 

I like what I see on this one. Thanks for sharing!

[Mk VII]

I'm tempted to say the sling is Cdn. But it doesn't look like ZL&T or MS&U or Hugh Carson Co. which are the usual Cdn ones.

Sometimes if you soak it in water it brings out the markings, until it dries again.

[firearm]

I will try that water trick and report back. Haven't priced it yet. It came with a carry case and a Seymour Drum. I will post those pics when I get a chance.

[firearm]

Soaked it and couldn't tell much, so I took a black light to it. That worked better. Can't read the first word but I can make out " MFG. Co., LTD 194x". 1st word looks like it has 5 letters and ends with "S" (I think). Also looks like some kind of logo in front of the 1st word. Any guesses?

[BEN74]

TD. Wrote: "I do believe the barrel has been changed sometime during the past because of the slight misalignment of the index markings and oval marking between the barrel collar and first fins."

 

I'm not sure this is right, I think the index markings were made during production and do not always align when assembled. I have seen this on some lend lease guns. Here are some photos of an A.O.C. M1928a1 I have, same on one I had in 52k serial range as well.

 

Regards BEN74

[peter kohler]

outstanding!!!

[Bridgeport28A1]

BEN74, is either Thompson AO 49669 or the 52K in the U.S.A.? Those AOC serial numbers are within the range of AOC Thompson that were in Ukraine/Russia after WW2. A lot of Thompson parts kits in that AOC serial number range ended up in the USA as parts kits commonly referred to a Russian parts kits. The barrels on some of those Thompsons appear to have been replacement barrels or at least had been reassembled.

[Merry Ploughboy]

firearm "Nick",

A nice example the "TOMMY GUN" marked variant. Thanks for sharing.

[BEN74]

Hi Bridgeport 28A1. They were found in a salt mine in Ukraine in the early 2000s and imported to various countries in Europe. Most of the ones I picked out and sold were unused, I was told that the reason most were unused was that the USSR did not have production of 45 ACP ammunition. Many of those that were left ( slightly used) and were not exported whole ,were divided into parts kits to be sold in the United States and other countries where it was not possible to import reserves. Was told they were land lease weapons that were delivered with various tanks and tracked vehicles from the United States during WW2. I sold all I got from the wholesaler, but was lucky and got to buy 2 back a couple of years later.

 

BEN74

[Mike Hammer]

BEN74, is either Thompson AO 49669 or the 52K in the U.S.A.? Those AOC serial numbers are within the range of AOC Thompson that were in Ukraine/Russia after WW2. A lot of Thompson parts kits in that AOC serial number range ended up in the USA as parts kits commonly referred to a Russian parts kits. The barrels on some of those Thompsons appear to have been replacement barrels or at least had been reassembled.

I have a nice crisp minty 28 parts kit in the 441 thousand serial # range from the Russian lot. Should have bought a few more of those, never though that parts would become that scarce.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Mike Hammer

[anjong-ni]

I'm curious when the barrel alignment marks are off:

 

A removal of sight or compensator would tell if the barrel were "ever" drilled at 90-degrees to the scribe mark, and re-drilled to present location.

 

Has anyone ever done this? ...Phil

[TD.]

BEN74,

You could be correct that the barrel on 'firearm's' British marked Thompson submachine gun, S - 213831, has not been replaced. However, I stand by my above statement. When Savage started manufacturing Thompson guns in early 1940 (the contract between Savage and Auto-Ordnance signed in December 1939), the first guns produced did not have index marks on what I call the barrel collar. (see: A Thompson Compendium) For some reason, it appears Savage may have had a problem with the alignment early on and just omitted the mark until the issue could be resolved. Of course, it may not have been an issue at all, but the time spent perfecting the alignment marks of the receiver and barrel collar slowed down production so it was initially omitted to increase production. Whatever the reason, the index markings started appearing on Savage made guns around the 19,000 serial number range until the end of the 1928 production. Based on what I have observed, the alignment on known original Savage guns is usually perfect. Do exceptions exist? Like everything in the Thompson world, exceptions are the rule, especially with wartime production.

 

Regarding your No. A.O. 49669, above, I also believe the barrel has been replaced on that Thompson gun. I do not understand the significance of the oval marking between the barrel collar and first fin, but I have seen this marking on a number of replacement barrels. The misalignment of the index marks follows what I believe is a common pattern.

 

I remember well the "Russian" parts kits and agree there were some very nice guns that were demilled and imported in the USA. However, there were plenty of well used guns that had very poor barrels, painted frames and receiver parts, defaced and/or re-stamped frame serial numbers and butt stocks where the stock and butt plate numbering did not match. These guns were used and no doubt rebuilt or overhauled at some point during their long stay in Russia or Ukraine. It was really buyer beware when seeking out a parts kit several years ago.

 

All good stuff!

[Rekraps]

I don't know anything about the gun but find it ver cool! Good catch.

[mnshooter]

I'm curious about the "TOMMY GUN' stamping on top of the receiver. Is that typical for lend lease Thompsons?

Awesome find!

Gnat

That, and all your other British Thompson questions are answered here:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Britain-Tommy-Gun-Story/dp/1502977818

 

(Written by TD, who has yet to send me even one of my commissions )

Edited June 12, 2022 by mnshooter

[colt21a]

When i sold the pile of stuff i had well over ten years now m1 m1a1 and 1928 kits pouches drums and belts all brand new including barrels and comps.non of any reworked or redone stuff patent date and crosby and a.o. 20 rd mags still in oiled wax wrap.lymans with rivets in boxes and comps new.and slings ww2 series new. it was a good time to have a Thompson.

 

i tire of reworked repainted and redone stuff.Too bad nobody else enjoyed that time line.RON K.

P.S.

A FEW OLDSTERS may remember 20 plus years when rusco, mills, sale also, i am sure maybe a few here still have the stuff.new from the 20's and 30's,the years of nice stuff....

[firearm]

My antique self was around back then. I remember picking off several really nice 21 Colt's with original hardcases, mags, serial numbered drums, etc. for around $2500 to $3500 back then. Fortunately, I started getting brain damage and never could bring myself to sell much of anything. That's why this place looks like a gun parts warehouse junk yard. These days I look around me and see an upcoming generation of youth that literally can't tell you which end of the weapon that the bullets come out of.

[JTravis]

On the subject of the "Russian" guns that were brought back from Ukraine around the early 2000s, I see that some of them with the "L" rear sight also have a smooth barrel with the Cutts compensator. Is that smooth barrel the same one used by the early M1 Thompsons with the standard ring front sight, or is it different?

[Countryboy77]

 

On the subject of the "Russian" guns that were brought back from Ukraine around the early 2000s, I see that some of them with the "L" rear sight also have a smooth barrel with the Cutts compensator. Is that smooth barrel the same one used by the early M1 Thompsons with the standard ring front sight, or is it different?

Lot of those 'l' sights are fake lyman reproductions and the lyman ladders they had were removed from the kits and sold at a premium.