My first shooting experience was.......disappointing (UPDATED after attempt #2)

[reconbob]

   Without question the problem here is that the barrel has a standard .45 ACP chamber which is DIFFERENT than the correct Thompson chamber. The Thompson chamber is more funnel-shaped with a 0.02” taper per inch vs. the almost straight wall .45 ACP chamber. 
    Annnd, the Thompson chamber has a rounded mouth. Those scrape marks on the cartridges in the photo show that the case is scraping along the sharp edge of a standard .45 ACP chamber, which slows down the bolt, resulting in the light primer strikes and misfires.

    Many aftermarket barrels have been sold over the years with the incorrect .45 ACP chamber. It’s cheap and easy to set up a CNC lathe to make the barrel and get an off-the-shelf .45 ACP reamer and sell “Thompson” barrels. I encountered so many of these barrels I had a correct Thompson chambering reamer custom made.
     This is an easy fix, Gene. 
 

Bob

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by reconbob

[TSMGguy]

Acquiring a NIB WH Thompson is no guarantee of anything. No two guns are alike. Each will either work fine or have its challenges. 

I bought a NIB WH M1 that had sat for about ten years before I bought it from the original owner. It wouldn't fire three rounds in a row without some kind of failure. The internals were cast purple WH junk but replacing them with GI parts didn't help functioning any. Off it went to PK for the full treatment. Now it's ruggedly reliable and a delight to behold. PK emulated the finish and configuration of an Early M1 TSMG using all NOS GI M1 parts including the "bright" bolt. The unissued parts set came from Omega. Only the matching receiver and frame are WH today.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by TSMGguy

[katanafred]

1 hour ago, Rekraps said:

Sounds like a lot of work to get these WH guns running. I was about to consider getting one that was NIB, but now will most likely not do so, opting instead for a USGI M1a1

I bought a WH TSMG recently, but I was fortunate in that it was sold locally and I was able to see it, inspect it and test fire it. The West Hurley's make great shooter guns once you replace some of the original parts with USGI pieces - especially the buffer pilot rod and add one of the polyurethane pilot rod discs in place of the original red one.  I highly recommend you acquire and read TD's book, "Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More" to help you understand WH parts issues and what you should replace with USGI parts.  Additionally, read Frank Iannamico's book, "American Thunder" which will help you identify the USGI parts you need.

Finally, here is another informative link on WH TSMG and how they were made: 

 

[Rekraps]

7 minutes ago, katanafred said:

I bought a WH TSMG recently, but I was fortunate in that it was sold locally and I was able to see it, inspect it and test fire it. The West Hurley's make great shooter guns once you replace some of the original parts with USGI pieces - especially the buffer pilot rod and add one of the polyurethane pilot rod discs in place of the original red one.  I highly recommend you acquire and read TD's book, "Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More" to help you understand WH parts issues and what you should replace with USGI parts.  Additionally, read Frank Iannamico's book, "American Thunder" which will help you identify the USGI parts you need.

Finally, here is another informative link on WH TSMG and how they were made: 

 

Thank you!

[Jeremy]

Glad to see this post.  Exact same issue with my WH '28.

 

I'll be pulling the barrel and tweaking the chamber or installing a USGI one if I can find it.

[katanafred]

6 hours ago, Jeremy said:

Glad to see this post.  Exact same issue with my WH '28.

 

I'll be pulling the barrel and tweaking the chamber or installing a USGI one if I can find it.

Lawman9328 and I fired both our WH TSMGs the other day ... It seems that replacing his recoil spring and/or the firing pin and spring in the bolt (as well as a thorough cleaning of the firing pin channel in the bolt) has solved the firing problem - i.e., the primers are getting the necessary strike to fire the rounds. His fifty round drum and one 30 round stick magazine worked great - everything fed & fired properly!  A good time was had by all! 🙂

That being said, we've discovered - like many of us FNG TSMG owners, that some of our magazines need tweaking and some brands of ammo perform less well than others.  In my case, I've found the Winchester target & practice, Speer Lawman & PMC bronze ammo (all FMJ, 230 grain, brass casings) have worked the best in my gun.

Edited August 31, 2023 by katanafred

[Jeremy]

5 minutes ago, katanafred said:

Lawman9328 and I fired both our WH TSMGs the other day ... It seems that replacing his recoil spring and/or the firing pin and spring in the bolt (as well as a thorough cleaning of the firing pin channel in the bolt) has solved the firing problem - i.e., the primers are getting the necessary strike to fire the rounds. The fifty round drum and one 30 round stick magazine worked great - everything fed & fired properly!  A good time was had by all! 🙂

That being said, we've discovered - like many of us FNG TSMG owners, that some of our magazines need tweaking and some brands of ammo perform less well than others.  In my case, I've found the Winchester target & practice, Speer Lawman & PMC bronze ammo (all FMJ, 230 grain, brass casings) have worked the best in my gun.

I'm getting the case scratch/dent that seems to indicate chamber mouth is the issue.

 

Bolt closed and a small dimple on the primer.

 

New Wolff recoil spring.  Haven't changed the firing pin/spring/hammer as it's seems i'm not getting fully into battery because of the chamber.

 

Yes some 30s are picky.  They have new wolff springs as well and that helped.

 

At this point I think it's the chamber that is my biggest hurdle.

[Lawman9328]

Well......regarding the comments about changing a WH barrel.....I have no idea if my barrel is a WH or a later reproduction by someone else.  I know that it's not a USGI barrel.  However, it has rounded cooling fins and most of the WH barrels I have seen from around the same period are more square.  In addition, unlike the WH barrels my barrel has no compensator on it.  It also has alignment marks on the receiver / barrel.  I know all that doesn't mean that my barrel isn't a WH....it's just that someone went to a lot of trouble to make mine look like a 1921 and not a 1928.

As for my latest range trip, the second attempt at the range went much better !!!  I still had issues but believe those to be ammo and/or magazine related.

1.  Changing the firing pin, firing pin spring, and recoil spring did away with the problem of rounds getting light strikes on the primer and not firing. 

2.  When I used the Winchester ammo it seemed to work flawlessly.

3.  I ran a full 50-rounds through my Bridgeport drum (in about 10-15 round bursts) and there were no issues at all.

4.  I had issues with a couple of magazines not seating high enough and the bolt would pass over the top without pushing a round into the chamber.  MOST of my magazines were USG issue and the holes in the back appeared round and not modified for the semi-auto versions.  However, I did have a couple of mags that appeared to have slightly elongated holes in the back.....looked more like normal wear and tear, not significant modifications like those done to make USG mags fit the semi-auto.

5.  My magazine catch seems to have issues because on most magazines I had to manually set the magazine catch on the magazine.   There were very few times that I pushed the magazine into the well and it just "clicked" into place.  Not sure if it's an issue with the mag catch spring or the alignment.

6.  After running out of Winchester ammo, I tried Fiocchi.  That didn't work at all.  Not sure what the issue was but those did not want to feed into the chamber properly.  I tried a couple of different magazines and they all had the same problem.  Never fired a single round of the Fiocchi so I'm crossing it off my "future purchase" list !!

7.  Next I tried Sellier & Bellot ammo.  Seemed to work just about as well as the Winchester.  No misfires or light strikes.....however I did have a one or two failures to chamber properly.

Next trip to the range I'm only going to use Winchester ammo since that seemed to work flawlessly.  I'll also be taking ALL of my magazines in order to shoot each of them and eliminate the ones that don't seem to work.

Gene  (aka "Lawman9328")

 

[Rekraps]

I'd ignore the ammo part... .45 ACP via commercial manufacturers should all run just fine. It's gotta be something else.

[timkel]

The Thompson is not picky with ammo. I don't see those scrape marks on empties either. You could try polishing the chamber. But sending it out to get it checked/reamed/polished would be best. Did you check that the mag catch in USGI? A bad box magazine is possible. Just visually check the cartridge height/angle with a good mag(use only dummy cartridges for this if inserted in weapon). Adjust feed lips if needed. I have run into a oval hole mag. 

[pstidan]

When I got my AO '28 Thompson some 19 years ago, I sent it off to PK to check it out.  Paul did his thing and stamped the receiver to document his work.  My '28 has worked perfectly then and now.  It eats everything from whatever magazine I use.  I couldn't be happier.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Hammer]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:54 AM, Mike Hammer said:

Did you experience the same problem using both stick and drum mags?

The mag catch is your main problem. I had the exact same symptoms as yours with my 1st WH, it drove me crazy for awhile. This is why I asked the above question. The Drum ran better than the sticks because the rail is holding the mag weight up. I solved the problem for the stick mags by adding a tiny amount of weld-on to the tab of the mag catch that pops into the mag. This insured that the mag was pushed up to the proper height and "clicked" into place every time. You could also try installing another mag catch, (GI). The firing pin work that you did also helped I'm sure.

[Tiz]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:18 AM, pstidan said:

When I got my AO '28 Thompson some 19 years ago, I sent it off to PK to check it out.  Paul did his thing and stamped the receiver to document his work.  My '28 has worked perfectly then and now.  It eats everything from whatever magazine I use.  I couldn't be happier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/31/2023 at 9:18 AM, pstidan said:

When I got my AO '28 Thompson some 19 years ago, I sent it off to PK to check it out.  Paul did his thing and stamped the receiver to document his work.  My '28 has worked perfectly then and now.  It eats everything from whatever magazine I use.  I couldn't be happier.

 

 

 

 

 

Great Picture of Paul. I wish he would have stamped mine when he did the complete work over on my WH. I understand he no longer stamps the guns. I do however have all the paperwork of the work done by Paul.

[mbc230]

When I got my WH it was a real beater. It had a Savage Lower with GI internals. A Lyman "L" Sight and a Savage Bolt with West Hurley Actuator and Buffer Pilot. It also had a West Hurley Barrel with Compensator on it. When I got it I literally tore it down to the receiver. I removed the everything and dunked it in Brake Clean to remove all the old Old and grime. It is like the former over never cleaned or maintained it. 

Now today it has a Colt lower with a mixture of Colt Internals and USGI internals. My friend and I re-barreled it with a Richardson 1921 Reproduction barrel and a re-blued Cutts Type 4 Comp. We also removed the Lyman "L" Sight and put a 1928 Lyman Ladder Sight on it. I have a genuine Colt Bolt and A Reproduction 1921 Actuator with a PK 1921 Buffer Pilot Kit to install it once I figure out why it only works with Winchester Ammo. It will not fire Federal Ammo at all. I will be taking it to Dan Block soon to have him go through it as I am not sure what is going on with it. It is a really nice Thompson after all the work that was put into it.

[First Sergeant]

Glad the new recoil spring helped.  Never had another issue with mine after replacing with a USGI spring.   Not discounting the chamber issues brought up by others , I was fortunate to solve my issues easily and inexpensively. 

  At some point, I replaced the WH barrel with a USGI one from the Russian kits many years ago.  My WH barrel was loose to begin with and merely unscrewing it made swapping out the barrels very easy.   

[Sandman1957]

Gene, just sent you a PM.  Do you have the Thompson in your possession, or is it still in the NFA time out box. (ie you were shooting it with the Dealer).

[Doug Quaid]

On 8/29/2023 at 9:04 AM, Rekraps said:

Sounds like a lot of work to get these WH guns running. I was about to consider getting one that was NIB, but now will most likely not do so, opting instead for a USGI M1a1

There is nothing wrong with buying a WH, but I would NEVER buy one NIB.

For two reasons:

1.   Collectors have a fanatical love of NIB stuff, and you will generally pay a lot extra for NIB, just because the average gun buyer is brainwashed into thinking NIB = more better.   Unless you are going to keep it NIB, you'll take a big hit on price when you start shooting it.  You'd be better off buying a used safe queen to use as a shooter.  Especially since WHs are shooters, not collector items.

Back when I bought my FNC, unfired ones were selling for $2500 and unfired ones IN THE CHEAP PLAIN BOX were selling for $3500.  

2.  WH guns generally need gunsmithing and part swaps, to an unknown and varying degree.  That costs money.  So why not just find a WH in nice shape that runs 100% already and skip the uncertainty, cost and nuisance of getting it running?

Here's a 3rd bonus reason:  sometimes the good gunsmiths have a big backlog.  I sent my Vector UZI to Richard Hoffmann and he sat on it for about 6 months.   I was a newbie when I bought it and was delighted to get one NIB.

I would buy a WH in a heartbeat, but only if it runs 100% and the price is decently discounted compared to the equivalent USGI gun.

I think that WHs are typically overpriced relative to USGI guns, because the newbies are attracted to the lower price and do not realize that they are getting a mediocre knock-off that has no historical collector value.    I'm not saying that to insult WH owners or play the snob, it's just the reality.  They are a clone that attracts the newbie buyers, who have more money than knowledge.

I know this for a fact, because I bought two NIB WHs when I was a newbie and knew virtually nothing about them, and sold them to two newbies who knew absolutely NOTHING about them.  

Here's something funny - I got some tire-kickers who tried to lowball me and they cried poverty.  Like "Please sell me the gun at a $5,000 discount because I have doctor bills to pay."   Know what's a swell way to pay doctor bills?   Don't buy a $20,000 range toy that burns $10 every time you press the trigger.  

Ruben is selling WHs for $27k, that is just way too much compared to shooter grade USGI guns.  

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[Rekraps]

21 hours ago, Doug Quaid said:

There is nothing wrong with buying a WH, but I would NEVER buy one NIB.

For two reasons:

1.   Collectors have a fanatical love of NIB stuff, and you will generally pay a lot extra for NIB, just because the average gun buyer is brainwashed into thinking NIB = more better.   Unless you are going to keep it NIB, you'll take a big hit on price when you start shooting it.  You'd be better off buying a used safe queen to use as a shooter.  Especially since WHs are shooters, not collector items.

Back when I bought my FNC, unfired ones were selling for $2500 and unfired ones IN THE CHEAP PLAIN BOX were selling for $3500.  

2.  WH guns generally need gunsmithing and part swaps, to an unknown and varying degree.  That costs money.  So why not just find a WH in nice shape that runs 100% already and skip the uncertainty, cost and nuisance of getting it running?

Here's a 3rd bonus reason:  sometimes the good gunsmiths have a big backlog.  I sent my Vector UZI to Richard Hoffmann and he sat on it for about 6 months.   I was a newbie when I bought it and was delighted to get one NIB.

I would buy a WH in a heartbeat, but only if it runs 100% and the price is decently discounted compared to the equivalent USGI gun.

I think that WHs are typically overpriced relative to USGI guns, because the newbies are attracted to the lower price and do not realize that they are getting a mediocre knock-off that has no historical collector value.    I'm not saying that to insult WH owners or play the snob, it's just the reality.  They are a clone that attracts the newbie buyers, who have more money than knowledge.

I know this for a fact, because I bought two NIB WHs when I was a newbie and knew virtually nothing about them, and sold them to two newbies who knew absolutely NOTHING about them.  

Here's something funny - I got some tire-kickers who tried to lowball me and they cried poverty.  Like "Please sell me the gun at a $5,000 discount because I have doctor bills to pay."   Know what's a swell way to pay doctor bills?   Don't buy a $20,000 range toy that burns $10 every time you press the trigger.  

Ruben is selling WHs for $27k, that is just way too much compared to shooter grade USGI guns.  

 

Doug, excellent insight and great advice. I especially appreciate it from someone who has hands-on experience with the gun in question. Very well written and thank you.

[Doug Quaid]

2 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Doug, excellent insight and great advice. I especially appreciate it from someone who has hands-on experience with the gun in question. Very well written and thank you.

You're welcome and thanks for the praise.

It's just my 2 cents, I'm sure other people have differing opinions.   Some WH guys luck out and they get one for a good price that runs 100%.

I'm more of a shooter than a collector, I actually like clone guns.   I'm glad I can burn thousands of rounds in my Vector UZI without worrying about spoiling its collector value.  I already had the rear plate and trunions rewelded, swapped out the south african bolt for IMI.

A nice middle ground is to buy an arsenal rebuilt USGI Thompson, or one of the Numrich parts guns.  That way, you can smoke the barrel and replace it with one of Reconbob's NOS USGI barrels and nobody is going to care much, since the gun is a Frankenstein of USGI parts anyway.  

The military arsenals just stripped guns, threw parts in to piles and then gauged the parts and rebuilt the guns with a mix of new and used good parts.  There is usually no real originality left.

I already bought 2 barrels from reconbob for my RIA rebuilt USGI M1A1, just in case.



 

[Maine-iac]

7 hours ago, Doug Quaid said:

I'm more of a shooter than a collector, I actually like clone guns.   I'm glad I can burn thousands of rounds in my Vector UZI without worrying about spoiling its collector value.

It's why I'm excited about my Thompson being an amnesty registered reweld. It has no intrinsic, actual historical value (according to most high end collectors) so I can appreciate it for what it is, and run it like I stole it!  Plus, that condition made it affordable, and a beater Thompson is better than no Thompson at all!

Now, if the ATF would just hurry up with that transfer...

They kicked the papers back once already, because they were convinced that the serial was wrong. They believed that the serial was "A0XXXXX" and not "AOXXXXX".

Edited September 18, 2023 by Maine-iac

[Rekraps]

12 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

It's why I'm excited about my Thompson being an amnesty registered reweld. It has no intrinsic, actual historical value (according to most high end collectors) so I can appreciate it for what it is, and run it like I stole it!  Plus, that condition made it affordable, and a beater Thompson is better than no Thompson at all!

Now, if the ATF would just hurry up with that transfer...

They kicked the papers back once already, because they were convinced that the serial was wrong. They believed that the serial was "A0XXXXX" and not "AOXXXXX".

I had the same SN issue with my TSMG, as the arsenal refinish filled in the SN to the point that the "6" looked like a "8" and so the past two Form 4's were incorrect. Took me six months, but it is now fixed. I got the official correction notice from the ATF.