Can you give me information from the serial number?

[Chappy]

I have a couple of 1928A1s but never an M1A1. Saw one at auction and pulled the trigger. Auto Ordinance/Bridgeport made in really nice shape. Can any of you knowlegeable Thompson folks give me a time made from this S/N? S/N JEC-101437

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Chappy

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Chappy

[bob241]

That seems to be a odd serial number marking, all the books I have show the M1 and M1A1 serial numbers starting with the letters NO.-------- No mfg letter in front of the sn like the 1928A1, (S or AOC) for Savage or Auto Ordnance Corp

[TD.]

It is definitely not a normal World War II production serial number from Savage Arms or Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport.

Does the serial number area on the receiver appear altered in any way, i.e., removal of the original serial number and restamping with the current number? 

Who is listed as the manufacturer on the ATF Form?

You may have to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to find out the registration history. This can only be done after the gun transfers to you.

[Chappy]

Guys, thanks for your help. Here is a closeup of the S/N

 

[TD.]

Chappy,

Thanks for the close-up picture of the serial number. Again, who is listed on the ATF Form as the manufacturer of this M1A1?

[Chappy]

This was at auction so I have not seen the form 3

Here is the photo saying AO Bridgeport

[Frank Iannamico]

Those markings do not appear to be factory roll-marked, but done by a pantograph engraver.

As Tom stated there were no serial numbers that started with letters other than NO.

Is there an AOC or S mark on the underside aft of the grip mount?

I SUSPECT that the receiver was made and registered by a C2 manufacturer and not a Bridgeport factory original. Do a FOIA on it to be sure. 

Do you have the auction house's description of that gun? 

UPDATE 

auction description and photos 

https://www.alderferauction.com/auctions/item/bw13814872

There is no letter S or AOC visible behind the grip mount.  

[TSMGguy]

Not a WWII receiver. Markings clearly engraved rather than roll marked.

[TD.]

Chappy,

Frank Iannamico is spot on above with his comments. Ask the auction company to take a picture of the Form 3 and text it to you. And let us know. 

I saw this gun at auction because I was following a Colt Thompson sold right before it. I know nothing about the auction company but suspect they would not know a C&R Thompson if it fell out of the sky and hit them in the head. However, they do take great pictures. If this was a true World War II M1A1 Thompson submachine gun, you would not have obtained it for the price you paid. Add 10K plus to the sold price. 

All that said, you probably have a great shooter grade Thompson at a good price that will be nice to display and shoot. May I suggest you purchase Frank's excellent book, American Thunder, Third Edition, while waiting for the transfer. It is the authority on all WW II Thompson submachine guns. It is available on Amazon.com at a great price and probably directly from Frank if you want an autographed copy. Private Message (PM) Frank and ask him. This book should be in every Forum member's library. Period. 

[pstidan]

52 minutes ago, TD. said:

... but suspect they would not know a C&R Thompson if it fell out of the sky and hit them in the head. ...

All transferrable Thompsons are classified C&R by BATFE regardless of when they were made or who manufactured them.

[Got Uzi]

Funny how people are now starting to realize that there are guns out there that are not as they appear....I pointed one out at a show and it took someone all of 5 seconds to realize what I was referring to.  If the markings on your 80-100 year old Thompson look to be too perfect....well they just might be.  Too many people using their ego's and wallets without being educated and it could cost them in the end due to having a gun that isnt what it was supposed to be.....the serial number maybe correct to the form 4, but the receiver isnt the original one from the 1940's.....but what do I know?

[Chappy]

TD

I emailed Alderfers and hope to have the form 3 on Monday. I really appreciate all your help. You help without the attitude is great an something missing from my Sturm experience

[1gewehr]

My first thought was that could be a Jonathon Ciener re-weld.  But his initials are "JAC", not "JEC".

[TD.]

Chappy,

This is a great and very educational forum with very little BS tolerated.

It will be interesting to see what is on the Form 3.

If you think being in the Thompson community is something that may appeal to you, consider joining The American Thompson Association (TATA) and/or the Thompson Collector's Assocation (TCA). Both associations publish 4 newsletters a year and have a private member only Show & Shoot in Ohio. If you live close to Ohio, that is two great Thompson events! This website has a forum for the two associations with information on joining - see link below. The Show and Shoot for TATA is usually around the first week in August; for TCA the last week in April, first week in May. These events will be announced on this forum.   

Thompson Collector Groups - Information and Reference - MachineGunBoards.com Forums

[Chappy]

Got Uzi,

You have helped mein the past and I thank you. Indeed, it was too good to believe. The gun looked great and I just came across the auction and simply believed that it was AO. I am now in communication with the auction house so we will see. They are a bit defensive right now but I told them that I made a mistake by blindly believing their description because of their reputation.

[Got Uzi]

I’ll be curious as to what they say. They seem to have misrepresented what it was so that’s on them. 

[Mike Hammer]

The auction house described the gun accurately so far as I have seen so I don't believe one can complain at this stage of the game. The serial number should have tipped off any buyer who knows anything at all about Thompsons, It's obviously not a WWII receiver. It looks like a great shooter though but obviously not worth quite as much as a WWII gun in that condition so I hope you didn't pay that kind of price for it. But when you add on the auction house commission as well as the sales price it just might be too much to spend on this gun. It didn't list the sales price did it? 

[Chappy]

Mike, the gun was listed as Auto Ordinance. in the title. If the title states A/O without a codicil noting that it is a knock off then this is an issue. Auction houses have a certain code that they need to follow. 

[Chappy]

Got Uzi, I believe you're right. I emeailed last night and they emailed back today asking why I didn't contact the folks on the Machine Gun Board before buying. I told him it was a stumbled upon auction that I took their word and description as accurate. I explained that as a reputable auction house I accepted their description of an A/O Thompson as a legitimate A/O Connecticut Thompson.

Fortunately they still need to work with me because I bought the Winchester M2 carbine also and there is still a balance.

Got Uzi,.... youare a knowledgeable guy and as a remember a seller. My question to you is, realistically, how much would a shooter grade, knock off gun such as this be worth on the open market? I paid $15,000 for what was advertised as, and what I believed to be A/O. In reality I would not buy a no name receiver but if I did, I wouldn't pay more than 10,000 for a non historic shooter. Please let me know what you might sell it for if it were your gun.

Thanks,

Chappy

[ron_brock]

In this case, the auction house may not have known just as the buyer.  They may believe the manufacturer is AO and certainly they are not a Thompson experts to know the serial number is certainly not a WWII manufactured receiver.  The Form 3 may help to determine, however that could be listed as AO as well, forms aren’t always accurate.  There should be a manufacturer stamped into the receiver somewhere, however there may not be.  It pays to really understand what is being purchased when money is spent.  
 

As mentioned, get a copy of American Thunder 3 or some of the other great Thompson books, join one or both clubs and look at Thompsons and learn.  

I hope it works out in the end, but I’m not sure it will.  Please do keep us posted. 
 

$15k is not bad for a shooter gun, if it’s ok overall and runs.  A good WWII would be mid to upper $20s or I’ve seen low $30s.  The days of $10k Thompsons are long gone 

Ron

*added pricing info

[Frank Iannamico]

I doubt if it is C&R which the auction house claims it is.

Some one posted here that ALL Thompsons are C&R I do not believe that is the case for C2's made receivers.

Colts, WWII and West Hurley's are C&R 

[Got Uzi]

This would not be a C&R gun but I’d be of the opinion that $15k would be a nice price for a shooter. I’d be ok with that gun for $15k as a solid shooter. $10k is a dream anymore and a WH M1 is $18k-$20k. Personally I’d say that this would be a much better choice than a WH gun. 

[Chappy]

Got Uzi, the information states it is C&R. Dan Block saved my West Hurley shooter. Now it runs well but howin the world could they market a gun that just won't fire without Hiccups?

Here is the description:

This Rifle is restricted by National Firearms Act (NFA) and is a fully transferable class 3 via form 4 and classified as C&R. Very good condition. 23-1515 C&R

[Got Uzi]

Well given how they misrepresented it as far as it being an AOC gun, I wouldn’t put it past them to have misrepresented its C&R status as well. You have to remember that auction houses don’t care if it fires, that’s on the seller to make sure it does and provide said information to them. They don’t have the time or personnel to check each gun that comes in for function. TBH many dealer don’t function fire the guns they sell. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Got Uzi

[Mike Hammer]

15 hours ago, Frank Iannamico said:

I doubt if it is C&R which the auction house claims it is.

Some one posted here that ALL Thompsons are C&R I do not believe that is the case for C2's made receivers.

Colts, WWII and West Hurley's are C&R 

Frank, here's the letter from the ATF determining that ALL Thompson's are C&R's. This was discussed years ago here. I believe ATF determined that the C2 produced Thompsons were of so few that they would be included in this ruling because of there rarity and connection with the Thompson gun. If this ruling was rescinded I cannot remember but I don't believe that to be the case.

Chappy, I can understand why you may be upset about the title of the gun's listing saying Auto-Ordnance, however the gun is marked as such and that is not the fault of the auctioneer and they were only printing what the engraving was on the gun. Due diligence on a highly priced collectable at an auction should always be done by the buyer before even bidding on an item.

Now, that being said, in my view you got a reasonably good buy on this gun. You said you paid 15K, so even with an auction premium of 15% or thereabouts, you are in it for $17000 which is right around it's true value in my opinion.  Do you not want to go through with the purchase now that you know it's not a WW2 receiver? I think many people here would be interested in that gun at that price. Are you a shooter or just a collector?

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Mike Hammer