George Raft and Jimmy Cagney gets some guidance on the Thompson.

[pitfighter]

Cool picture, a clearly posed, George Raft and James Cagney getting some Thompson guidance form an expert.

Each dawn I die (1939)

[Taliaferro]

GREAT PHOTOGRAPH!

 

TRACIE HILL

[Mike Hammer]

Nice behind the scenes shot. By the time this film was made Cagney was probably pretty familiar with the Thompson as he had wielded them in some previous films And I believe the practice of using live rounds in some scenes was on the way out, thank goodness. “The Public Enemy” and “Taxi”with Cagney were great example of that practice. In the latter, Cagney was almost hit.

We will exclude the recent debacle with Alec Baldwin in that category of the use of live rounds on a movie set.

Edited February 15 by Mike Hammer

[bug]

I think he was showered with broken glass from a Thompson burst in "Angels With Dirty Faces", too.

[jim c 351]

In the above post by Mike Hammer, the actor Alec Baldwin was mentioned.

As I understand it, Mr Baldwin is charged with manslaughter because he accepted a revolver from a film crew, pointed it at the crew, and pulled the trigger, with out personally inspecting the gun for live rounds.

Going by that reasoning, if a Thompson ,with a drum mag was used, Would Alec be required to disassemble the drum and check for live rounds.?

What about a 30 rd stick mag. Unload and reload the mag?

When is the word of the armorer not good enough.?

My personal opinion is , the person that handed the revolver to Alec and declared it safe, is the one who should be on trial. What do others think/??

Jim C

 

[colt21a]

It was from a belt feed, the brick pelts. Maybe wrong, but maybe right, told to me well over 45 years ago when i got the m.g.m. Thompson i called the studio and tracked down props dept and gun effects. one guy about age 85 was retired. left my info he contacted me and gave me some details. also sent me a great pic from the BIG HOUSE 1931 WITH WALLACE BEERY. Holding the m.g.m. gun i acquired in its 1921a appearance, later they added a comp for Bataan,{robert taylor version} and Never So Few.

he retired by that time in early 60's.GOOD TIMES..GREAT PICTURE FROM JESSE A GREAT FIND. 

[Mike Hammer]

2 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

In the above post by Mike Hammer, the actor Alec Baldwin was mentioned.

As I understand it, Mr Baldwin is charged with manslaughter because he accepted a revolver from a film crew, pointed it at the crew, and pulled the trigger, with out personally inspecting the gun for live rounds.

Going by that reasoning, if a Thompson ,with a drum mag was used, Would Alec be required to disassemble the drum and check for live rounds.?

What about a 30 rd stick mag. Unload and reload the mag?

When is the word of the armorer not good enough.?

My personal opinion is , the person that handed the revolver to Alec and declared it safe, is the one who should be on trial. What do others think/??

Jim C

 

Jim, the Baldwin saga is discussed ad nauseam in a thread in general discussions so take a look at that. Both the armorer and Baldwin are guilty. Yes, if Any actor is given a real gun on set, it is first the armorer that is supposed to prepare the weapon, once the actor is given the weapon he now becomes liable. Every Hollywood film I have worked on followed those guidelines, even dummy guns are examined. The fact that Baldwin was also one of the producers of the film and that he employed such lax rules on the set makes him doubly responsible.

[colt21a]

When i did the St. Vals scene of the garage shoot.in Chicago. I used one of the guns from the Untouchables {WHEN THEY FILMED IT IN CHICAGO. the gun was checked by the prop master himself >loaded with 50 blanks.<and i was able to see drum LOADED < I carried it around in my possession only. FOR A GOOD HOUR OR SO. even to the darn John.THEY KNEW I HANDLED THOMPSONS  so when we shot the scene, 2 takes. i said in first i did not fire all fifty, as they said a fairly long fire sequence. second take had about 20 left. i emptied the drum. my first wise crack was "Happy Valentines Days Boys.AND I STARTED FIRING.. Many things go on behind every scene. Yeah it was fun back then, i was promised a 1897 Winchester pump from the pic, however it ended up with politics to somebody else.WHEN Jerry Rivers or what he went by during capones vaults, we never got anything good.the tape on beta max. MY BUDDY, HELMER might remember. always a good time.  

[Mike Hammer]

4 hours ago, colt21a said:

It was from a belt feed, the brick pelts. Maybe wrong, but maybe right, told to me well over 45 years ago when i got the m.g.m. Thompson i called the studio and tracked down props dept and gun effects. one guy about age 85 was retired. left my info he contacted me and gave me some details. also sent me a great pic from the BIG HOUSE 1931 WITH WALLACE BEERY. Holding the m.g.m. gun i acquired in its 1921a appearance, later they added a comp for Bataan,{robert taylor version} and Never So Few.

he retired by that time in early 60's.GOOD TIMES..GREAT PICTURE FROM JESSE A GREAT FIND. 

 Ron, if I had that MGM gun that would have been one that I kept forever. The film history on those MGM guns are overwhelming. I wonder if any board member has one, if so would love to see pics.

Here's one of my favorite Cagney/Thompson photos in my collection. Cradling it like a baby. Note the restrictor mounted on the muzzle for the blank shooting capability.

Edited February 15 by Mike Hammer

[colt21a]

Mike i traded it to my buddy to get the Mason City robbery gun back.March 34  the one time Dillinger got winged. so now both are gone. I think the Mason City GUN  is in Colorado and the m.g.m. is in safe in Wisconsin still, with the hardcase from m.g.m.still has the blank barrel in the case also as i delivered to him/ also helped him get the Hymie Weiss Thompson. the one that was found on top of the dog house over the fence with the 100 rd c drum.I HAVE INFO ON HUNDREDS OF THOMPSON

heck maybe thousands. and gave much of that info to my friend Gordon when he was doing his great book. i think he thanked me in it someplace.

 

good times yes i miss them.

 

[pitfighter]

When I started out almost 40 years ago a lot of prop houses had their own armories, only a few remain now: ISS, Hand prop room and a couple of others. Gibbons used to do a lot of my transfers, the business as whole  is profoundly changed now. 

Still, the ISS armories are terrific to visit when you need something special.

Most of the independent armourers I know are getting out of the business, keeping a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons permit (as well as the Federal permits you guys all know about), that has to be renewed every year is a major headache. You would need MG, SBS/SBR, DD and .50 on your tabs to be fully stocked and each is a separate charge to your credit card (and a separate charge for every firearm of that type in your inventory), and should DOJ be slow in renewing, which they are every year, you're stuck with an inventory that could put you in the big house, "stressful" doesn't describe the feeling adequately. 

Some of the tax-incentivized states, GA and NM etc., have armourers who are able to stay in business without the CA headaches, they have some nice toys. I rented an MG42 for Michael Rooker in GA that the owner said had not gone bang since WW2, not sure I believe him, but it was a nice one.

 

[colt21a]

Jesse great stuff right there.those who have never done much of anything with this, have no clue how much money time travel and investment over the decades. I was told once you have to love the history and not the $$$, Bob Landies once told me "Ron you are beyond help" I took that as good. and as a compliment not a wise ass remark.

since i was all over the map trying to do it all.Now there is people out there who want to do the same..enjoy it all because the decades will fly by fast. And keep a very sharp mind.AND laugh.. 

[HANS]

11 hours ago, colt21a said:

It was from a belt feed, the brick pelts.

 

The scene in The Public Enemy where the burst takes off the edge of a brick wall shows two belt-fed Vickers guns (presumably Colt M1915), as seen here, but as you can see in the next clip, narrated by Cagney, they actually used a Model 1921A for that.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[colt21a]

 Hans I remember that part{That was reported a 21a for the action  live rounds }but they used belt feeds in the action scene filming. also in Scarface the original Paul Muni. Before the other 2 portrayals   they shot up a window the same way.

I guess after awhile somebody said hey somebody could get hurt or killed...good times to be in the movies i guess. like Basil Rathbone and Errol Flynn SWORDPLAY and someone got cut,

Glad this was posted it got us off rear sites and screw size and wood grains in stocks.

 

 

[Mike Hammer]

9 hours ago, colt21a said:

 Hans I remember that part{That was reported a 21a for the action  live rounds }but they used belt feeds in the action scene filming. also in Scarface the original Paul Muni. Before the other 2 portrayals   they shot up a window the same way.

I guess after awhile somebody said hey somebody could get hurt or killed...good times to be in the movies i guess. like Basil Rathbone and Errol Flynn SWORDPLAY and someone got cut,

Glad this was posted it got us off rear sites and screw size and wood grains in stocks.

 

 

Funny that you mentioned someone possibly being hurt or killed in a Errol Flynn movie. In 1939's "Robin Hood", real arrows were used by famed archer Howard Hill to shoot men square in the back while moving in fight scenes. A piece of wood was attached to their backs with a steel plate at the base. Hill was so good, he never missed. Those stuntmen must have had great faith in his excellence as an archer, aside from the $150 that they received as pay! Needless to say, just like using live bullets in a machine gun on set, I don't think we'll ever again see real arrows shot at actors.

In another Flynn movie, a swordfight took place between him and famed horror Dracula actor Christopher Lee, (in an early role). Flynn's sword crashed down on Lee's hand severely breaking his little finger. Lee's finger never healed properly and it's permanent bend can be seen in most of his Dracula films where he raises his hand to point at his victims. 

[BillyDixon]

if anyone hands me a firearm i check to see if loaded no matter what anyone says,always !! just sayn

[pitfighter]

Cannot find it as a YouTube clip, but Dollars to doughnuts, I'd wager Jimmy Cagney (with chicken leg in other hand) uses live rounds to shoot the trunk of the car where the cop is hiding in White Heat.

The rounds cave the back of the trunk inwards and the pistol kicks far more than with a blank cartridge and then jams in a full recoil.

Take a peek let me know what you experts think - it's one of the few moments I recall where an actor is employed to shoot a live round on camera.

 

Ron, glad you're doing well!

[bug]

Hey, Parker needed some air...

[rpbcps]

20 hours ago, BillyDixon said:

if anyone hands me a firearm i check to see if loaded no matter what anyone says,always !! just sayn

I guess that is training. Last year I was borrowing some 9 mm blank pistols from the Belgium Police training school for our own training nearby. For even those, it is 2nd nature for me to check if loaded. Same when handing back to armourer, mags off and opened slide to show the weapons were empty.

[colt21a]

jesse i am sure those are live rounds. i always check on belt feds in all movies primers or none or dented used primers.or just empty cases belted.a few have had what looks like live ammo in them, and i am sure in some for non shoot scenes. they got away with it.subs and handguns a different story. White heat another classic with him.was not able to get a new first series colt like he used. but ended up with a second series 1960 model. the movie was in 49, so it looks like a first.Since he dumps the 45 to carry the snub. "ma top of the world".

[reichstall]

This is a great thread. If anyone has ever watched in early Russian World War two movies, I think we would agree not a great time to be an actor.

[Mike Hammer]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:42 PM, pitfighter said:

Cannot find it as a YouTube clip, but Dollars to doughnuts, I'd wager Jimmy Cagney (with chicken leg in other hand) uses live rounds to shoot the trunk of the car where the cop is hiding in White Heat.

The rounds cave the back of the trunk inwards and the pistol kicks far more than with a blank cartridge and then jams in a full recoil.

Take a peek let me know what you experts think - it's one of the few moments I recall where an actor is employed to shoot a live round on camera.

 

Ron, glad you're doing well!

I could not find any information if live rounds were used in that scene but I did find this quote from an unnamed source: 

"At the time of filming, special effects were not yet using squibs (tiny explosives that simulate the effects of bullets). The producers employed skilled marksmen who used low-velocity bullets to break windows or show bullets hitting near the characters. In the factory scene, James Cagney was missed by mere inches."

I don't think that statement is accurate, I think they were available during the early 40's. The trunk probably had pre made holes or dents that were set to a concealed squib load. I would be surprised if they let the lead star Cagney use live rounds in that scene but it might be possible. I will have to take a fresh peek at it again as I have not watched it in years. 

Hollywood is getting away from even using blank guns during filming nowadays. The "John Wick" films are a good example of this. They employ what they call "Plug guns" that have a rod and small charge inside them just enough to function the slide so there is no muzzle blast as using a blank gun. The visual flash is added post production with CGI or other similar trickery.

Edited February 19 by Mike Hammer