MarkN Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 I'm looking to buy a nice 28 Thompson Commercial. From what I can see it has everything that makes it a "commercial". Serial number range 125XXX. I just talked with the seller tonight and he said that there is no serial number on the lower receiver. He pulled off the buttstock and did not find a number on the underside of the lower receiver??? Any ideas/explanations for the lack of a number? Would it effect the value? Thanks. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkN Posted October 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 It says "Model of 1928" NO. S- 125XXX This was a gun that went to Law Enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkN Posted October 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Phil, It's on the Subgun's NFA board with a few pictures. If you scroll down the NFA ads it's # 101. I'd post the link but I'm having trouble posting it. Thanks. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.c...query=retrieval Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 (edited) Not that I know anything for sure...but the blue looks wrong to me. I have seen S-122xxx and S-1499xx and both of those had the dull Dulite finish (but blue barrel). I would want to go eyeball that one to see if it had/has acceptance marks, what kind and the finish. (pictures are too fuzzy) JMHO Edited October 3, 2007 by Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Mark N., Welcome to the Thompson Forum. This Thompson may be a lot of things, but it is NOT a Savage Commercial Thompson. I don't have time tonight to go into everything that is apparently wrong with this Thompson as related to an original Savage Commercial Thompson. However, based on the poor quality pictures posted on the SubGuns ad, there are a number of problems. The first is the Bridgeport, Connecticut address. A genuine Savage Commercial Thompson will have a New York, New York address. There are several other obvious problems, wood, ejector, etc. I noted the ad states "matching numbers." And now you find out there is no serial number on the lower frame. Interesting. This looks like a commercially blued military Thompson. Most likely a good shooter, but no collector value that I see. You can do much better for this much money in today's market. I suggest you keep looking. Let us know what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Sniper Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 MarkN I must go along with TD. in the ad it says commercial grade (not sure what that means) bus its not not a Savage commercial first of all I have never seen one with a serial number greater than 35XXX and as TD said they are NYNY address not Bridgeport CT. and the finish is wrong and the gun would have a vertical front grip not a horizontal one, and the cutts would be a number 2 I could go on but the bottom line is he calls it a commercial grade I just don't know what he means by this, but it is missing almost all criteria to be a commercial. TD points out in the add says matching numbers, now there is no numbers on the lower. The only lowers I have seen with no numbers is a very few AO M1 lowers never Savage. You need to buy what you want and what makes you happy just try and get some more facts about the missing numbers, it will make a great shooter but make no mistake that it is not even close to a true Savage Commercial. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMG28 Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 MarkN, :agree: I agree with all of the above comments. Other items that are not correct are the buttstock and actuator. The buttstock is a crossbolt style and the actuator is smooth. Neither are correct for a Savage in this number range. If there is no evidence of a serial number on the lower (as opposed to one that has been ground off), that makes it likely that the lower receiver is a replacement, perhaps not even Savage. Good hunting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Mark, I believe even the replacement Savage lowers had the S- on them so if there is no S- it's likely an AO. Many of the 28 lowers from the Russian kits I've seen had the original SNs ground off. Most were restamped though. They also had non pinned stocks. Go 16K and see what happens. Bob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkN Posted October 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Gentlemen, thanks for all the input. The gun has the correct wood-the no cross bolt buttstock and the vertical foregrip. Previous owner had refinished it in cherry so the new owner replaced it with something that looked more original. Also Frank's book American Thunder II indicates the Bridgeport address was on the later 28's, including the commercial with serial numbers over approx 75,000. However there are other things that make it questionable as a true commercial. The seller accepted my offer of $18,000 but without the serial number on the lower I just can't complete the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Regarding the trigger frame - and I guess this is for future reference since you've decided to pass on the gun - one thing to look for when gaging the authenticity of a pre-war receiver/trigger frame matchup is to make sure the T-slot for the magazine spine has round corners. Some later frames do not have that. There were some military contract frames a while back that had no serial numbers, but they were late style with the square T-slot. A lot of people bought them to correct mismatched guns. There was also a post here about a "matching" gun where the trigger frame had obviously been renumbered to match because the number 4 on the trigger frame was open at the top - typical of easy to find and buy hand stamps - and not the closed-top 4 like the one I just typed. There is so much to look out for but keep reading here and you'll learn a lot. I still consider myself to be a rookie when it comes to a lot of this stuff and its great to have this board as a resource. Oh - and clearly the gun has been polished and reblued.... My $0.02 Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 MarkN, I believe you are wise to wait on another Thompson if you want a true Savage Commercial Thompson. On what page in American Thunder II did you find the information by Frank regarding the Bridgeport address on higher numbered Savage Commercial Thompsons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkN Posted October 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Page 174-175. Thanks again for all the input. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 (edited) Page 174-175. Thanks again for all the input. Mark Mark, I think you misread Frank's cut line below the photo for the 1928 TSMG. He never associated later serial number Savage 1928's with the Bridgeport, Ct address as "Commercial" TSMG's. Not to mention that Frank even states the highest Savage 1928 serial number with a New York address is 75115. That precludes any Savages with a Bridgeport address from being a "Commercial" on that grounds alone. Edited October 7, 2007 by Arthur Fliegenheimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 Some good info given here and I am still a little confused on the reported Savage Commercial Serial Number Ranges. What would Savage Thompson Serial # S-150282 as shown in Tracie Hills Book, Page 178 be considered? Or its it actually serial number 50282 with a prefix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 MarkN, I agree with Arthur. I believe you may have misunderstood the point Frank was making on these pages as related to Savage Commercial Thompsons. I would stick to the New York address unless documentation proved otherwise. I applaud your efforts on buying Frank's book, doing some research and asking questions on the Board. You will not be easily fooled. interord, Excellent point. The serial number is S-150282. This is a very unusual Savage Commercial Thompson in that it is a Model of 1921 Savage Thompson. I do not know the history behind this particular one of a kind Thompson. The serial number would make one think this Thompson has a Bridgeport address. However, this point is not clear in the book. If interested, I suggest you send a letter to Tracie asking for more information on this particular Thompson. I am sure the answer is available. Tracie does state in his book that a New York address is a pre-requisite for a Savage Commercial Thompson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 Thanks TD! I will try to ask Tracie at The next OGCA Show in November and report back with any findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjb1 Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I have mentioned my Savage Commercial/Non-commercial before, but have never received any comment that I am aware of. It is similar to the one being discussed here, so I will mention it again and hope that someone has some ideas about what it is and what it should be called. It is a Savage "Model of 1928" (No "US", no "A1", and they have not been ground off). It has no military acceptance marks. Serial: S-135xxx , *Bridgeport address*, Dulite receiver, blue finned barrel, compensator, Lyman sight, no-crossbolt stock, PD former ownership (When I bought mine (1986) there was another just like it available (a few thousand higher in serial number) and I wish I had bought both of them.) Based on the discussion so far, it isn't a real "Savage Commercial" - but it definitely is a Savage, and it's not military, so I am curious about what "nomenclature" should be attached to it, and if anyone else has seen one like this. (How does it fit into the Thompson genealogy?) Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmlogg Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 I've recently seen offered for sale a Savage Bridgeport Thompson marked 1928 without US and A1. What is interesting is that the maker's location and the block of patent numbers are located as previously with the Colt's and the very earliest Savages. At serial no. S-85797 that would seem to put it into the earliest period (i.e after 83818 identified by Frank in his book) after the change to Bridgeport stamping. How unusual is it to have the markings in this way. And of course, entering into the debate, could it count as a Commercial (I know the views expressed about the NY,NY address). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 (edited) Some good info given here and I am still a little confused on the reported Savage Commercial Serial Number Ranges. What would Savage Thompson Serial # S-150282 as shown in Tracie Hills Book, Page 178 be considered? Or its it actually serial number 50282 with a prefix? inertord, Tracie Hill's "The American Legend" has numerous errors where the photo and cut lines are mismatched. The Savage 1928 pictured on page 178 is obviously not a "Commercial" TSMG since all the necessary features are missing from this example to qualify it as a "Commercial." The 150262 serial number with the misaligned "1928" and the AOC added "1" over-strike, may make this Savage odd, but it does not make it a "Commercial." I do not believe that insert photo (166) is a Savage factory roll mark with an AOC added "1," as Hill concludes. The "1921" fonts are the type Savage used after the 200,000 serial number range. So if the only number changed was the addition of the "1" stamped over the "8," at some unknown period, why would the entire "1928" be in the latter font? I think Hill is reaching on this one. Edited October 7, 2007 by Arthur Fliegenheimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Sniper Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 There are some great points made in this discussion but for a Savage to be placed as a true commercial there is a pretty large list of items that are missing from most of its counter parts. 1. having the New York address 2. having the Colt era wood with the nickle parts 3. The number 2 Cutts Comp. 4. The Colt no hole mag release 5. The Colt style checkerd fire controll levers 6. The Colt style flat ejector non rivited 7. The verticle front grip 8. GEG inspection marks with no military markings and the Dulite finish on the receiver with the blue barrel and there is a few more not comeing to me off my head. I believe there are guns made by Savage that ended up in police departments just as the AOC guns did, but have never heard of them described as Commercial's like the early guns that are associated with the name so you can call them what you will, but they will never bring the money from a collector unless these features are met. just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 FWIW, This gun was listed about a month ago for $10k (by a differnt gentleman in Mi), sold immediately, before I could check it out. At that time it was listed as a shooter, that was refinished, and a great buy for the money....Now I see it's a new seller and listed in great blued condition, commercial greade at 19k OBO. If one was interested in this gun, I would check it out before forking over the cash. - Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Here's the ad, would not have minded it at this price, but I think I will shop some more at the latter price: http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.c...query=retrieval FWIW, This gun was listed about a month ago for $10k (by a differnt gentleman in Mi), sold immediately, before I could check it out. At that time it was listed as a shooter, that was refinished, and a great buy for the money....Now I see it's a new seller and listed in great blued condition, commercial greade at 19k OBO. If one was interested in this gun, I would check it out before forking over the cash. - Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireMerc Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Nice catch...this guy is playing games, he even used the same picture in both ad's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Some good info given here and I am still a little confused on the reported Savage Commercial Serial Number Ranges. What would Savage Thompson Serial # S-150282 as shown in Tracie Hills Book, Page 178 be considered? Or its it actually serial number 50282 with a prefix? inertord, Tracie Hill's "The American Legend" has numerous errors where the photo and cut lines are mismatched. The Savage 1928 pictured on page 178 is obviously not a "Commercial" TSMG since all the necessary features are missing from this example to qualify it as a "Commercial." The 150262 serial number with the misaligned "1928" and the AOC added "1" over-strike, may make this Savage odd, but it does not make it a "Commercial." I do not believe that insert photo (166) is a Savage factory roll mark with an AOC added "1," as Hill concludes. The "1921" fonts are the type Savage used after the 200,000 serial number range. So if the only number changed was the addition of the "1" stamped over the "8," at some unknown period, why would the entire "1928" be in the latter font? I think Hill is reaching on this one. Thank you Arthur! This gun had me way in "Left Field" trying to fit it in with the previous Savage Commercial Discussion(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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