StooperZero Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 somebody actually used the word "Rapidity" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Yes, Dillinger robbed banks with Rapidity guns. Sounds like a term from the Ladies at church that witnessed a bank robbery. To be clear, only a mid joke on my part... Edited February 10, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Awesome, many thanks for that Monarch flyer! I have looked for period price quotes for those things for ages. Do you know from which year the ad is? Cheers HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) These are from a friend of mine that's on this forum too. He asked if I would forward as he was having difficulties attaching- He also has some good info on the Monarch stuff.Helmer has an ad also, from like a Popular Merchanics type mag, 1938. OCM Edited February 13, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) edited for photo room.. Edited February 13, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StooperZero Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 i wonder what one of these stocks would go for today if you came across one . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Playing the Devil's Advocate, I'd like to see the FBI Lebman Colt mini personally, to see if this was a Monarch conversion, or destructive FBI mounting issues.Of course this will never happen. Looks like the Monarch conversion from here.Would Lebman used it in 1933, early 1934, NFA rules in 1934, would it hold up to a FA 1911.I'll dial that in my Time Machine- Pal said it's very rare- value ? Sometimes value & rarity don't go together. OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StooperZero Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 so, Gimmick? how would that support area really hold up? based on the material of the time given.. I tried and tried to jump start the old hard drive I had of all the blueprints/specs for a lot of the lebman stuff. no luck. dead.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Hacksaw-I'd probably put it in the Gimmick world ?? Don't really know tho, never heard or seen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl7422 Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Stooper asked what one of those stocks go for . . . Several years ago a guy I know came across one at the Ventura gun show. It was on a gunsmith's pile of old parts and junk-- my buddy didn't really know what it was, but he went ahead and gave $5 for it. Didn't know it needed matching grips to be able to mount it until he researched it that night.He raced back the next day and picked through the entire table piece by piece and asked the sellers about any metal grips they have or had. . . they knew nothing about metal grips and never had any. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 In some off site discussions on this, it does look like something for a smaller gun, like the Woodsman for shooting muskrats & frogs etc., not a gun like the Lebman " baby submachine gun " for Nelson or Dillinger, a full auto 45 or 38 Super. My two bits on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Playing the Devil's Advocate, I'd like to see the FBI Lebman Colt mini personally, to see if this was a Monarch conversion, or destructive FBI mounting issues.Of course this will never happen. Looks like the Monarch conversion from here. Speaking of the FBI display, what is its current status? Is it still up at FBI headquarters in Quantico? Has it been taken down? If the latter, when was that?What happened to the displayed items? If this Lebman gun is stored away in their archives now, is there a way to contact their custodian to check things like this? I've only ever seen the two rather blurry photos of this Dillinger .38 Lebman (one showing the horizontally-arranged display prior to 1966 and one showing the vertical display from 1966), surely there exist others, perhaps some that show more detail?What about the serial number?Is that really a 22-round Monarch magazine with the second grip removed, or a Spanish magazine (most of the .45 Lebmans show Star-manufactured 25-round magazines ), or something else entirely?What are the internal modifications that made this full-auto? Etc, etc.Where are the .45 Lebmans now? Nelson/Musgrave show at least three different ones in THE WORLD'S MACHINE PSTOLS AND SUBMACHINE GUNS, all with good photos, which might indicate these still existed as late as 1980. Cheers HANS Edited February 13, 2016 by HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwill Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 Monarch products:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Custom/Full%20Auto/Monarch%20stock%20and%20magazine_zpsmorov5f8.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Custom/Full%20Auto/Monardh%20rifleetteR%202_zpsmbr2i3hw.jpgAFAIK, Lebman did not use Monarch stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 AFAIK, Lebman did not use Monarch stuff. Look at the Lebman machine pistol in the FBI display. The left grip panel looks EXACTLY like a Monarch grip panel, complete with discolouration (the Monarch grip panel was made of aluminium) and two counterholes for the screws in the stock. Yes, the stock is not attached. That doesn't mean it wasn't meant to take it. Again, a better photo might disprove this, but right now I'd say it very much looks that way.The magazine also looks suspiciously like a Monarch magazine, with the bulky off-hand grip removed of course. The .45-calibre Lebmans I've seen on photos all have 25-round Star magazines, while this has a shorter, crimped for .38-calibre rounds magazine just like the one offered by Monarch. Except for the off-hand grip, of course, which again might have simply been taken off. Cheers HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwill Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 HANS, Is there a high resolution copy of that FBI photo? How do we know that gun had any connection to Lebman? Regards,Kevin Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) HANS, Is there a high resolution copy of that FBI photo? How do we know that gun had any connection to Lebman? Regards,Kevin Williams Unfortunately, I haven't see one. I certainly would like to know more about that weapon. For example, as far as I can tell from the photo, the display claims the gun is a ".45 Auto Colt Government Model Automatic Pistol", yet the magazine has the crimp that indicates it is for the .38 Super Auto cartridge. As to this being a Lebman, we probably can't be sure, but it looks like it is the one the Bureau of Investigation found in Dillinger's apartment in St Paul. Externally, it looks like all the other Lebmans: Cutts comp, TSMG grip, extended magazine. Except that while the other (assumed) Lebmans depicted in Nelson's book all have the normal wooden grips, this one seems to have the Monarch grip installed. Given that all Lebmans were custom-made and in fact differed from gun to gun, I don't think it's a stretch to believe this one is a Lebman as well. As far as I know, noone else built full-auto Colts with TSMG foregrips and Cutts comps at the time. Also, attaching a stock to one of these things does make sense; the contemporary Astra, Mauser, Star etc machine pistols all had an optional stock and all were claimed to be uncontrollable without it. The Lebmans might be slightly better on account of the compensator and the foregrip, but a stock would still have improved the shooting. Apparently, the owner valued concealability more, since the stock is not installed (and hasn't on the contemporary photo I have seen, in Dillinger's apartment.) Cheers HANS Edited February 13, 2016 by HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwill Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 HANS, I'm not trying to be argumentative; just trying to learn. There were quite a few people experimenting with shoulder stocks, long magazines, compensators and full auto capabilities for these pistols, including Colt! Both .45 and .38 caliber pistols were being used. I have very long factory magazines in both calibers and lots of pictures of such experiments that were not made by Lebman. I don't believe Lebman used actual Cutts compensators either. He made his own (as did others) that resembled the Cutts. I'm no expert but some of my limited knowledge comes from having interviewed Marvin Lebman some years ago. Regards,Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 Kevin,It's nice to see you on this site after seeing you on the Colt site for many years.Your the man regarding Colt 1911s.Welcome aboard,Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwill Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 Thanks, Darryl. I'm not very active on any of the forums any more but get to them when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StooperZero Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Now that we have a bunch of pics, I've seen this same stock on an older air gun before. What are the internal modifications that made this full-auto? Etc, etc from one set of schematics i had, the front grip had a safety plunger that needed held down to enable the safety/auto sear to work. Or else you just got semi. i dont know if that was one of Lebmans' methods OR something the russians or somebody else was playing with and trying to market. Edited February 13, 2016 by StooperZero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Kinda got lost here in this thread.I believe the Lebman gun on display is the 38 Super with select fire, one of the more modern ones he did and was recovered at the Lincoln Court apartment battle with Dillinger. Has the 7 slot muzzle brake , believed to be manufactured by Lebman in his shop. Don't know what the grip is on display, still could be something the Navy was experimenting with, I just don't know.Some photos of the Lincoln Court Apt gun, the Nelson Army 45 Lebman conversion and contemporary versions, some work in progress.Larry Wack may know, if he chimes in, I think he did the FBI tours at one time. The pictures of the display can be dated a bit as the Winchester 07 Lebman conversion was on loan to the FBI, maybe as late as the 1960s. Unfortunately, the FBI kept the gun, the Tucson PD has the other. Opps- can't be the Lincoln Court Apt 38 Super, has the 5 slot Comp.... The Nelson gun has the Lebman made front grip. Was this the Van Meter gun that was on the bench when Lebman was arrested ? ( new Monarch conversion attempt, not finished yet ?) Fairly clear shot I posted on the FBI collection, I zoomed in on the Lebman Colt mini- ODD looking grip, looks broken on the bottom and maybe a mounting screw in the center, no clue. Time machine....... Edited February 21, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StooperZero Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) hmm. based on my old Ortgies question, Im betting Dillinger used a .25 model since thats what it looks like in the pics. BTW Zero luck ... again and again on trying to get a beater 1911. Edited February 13, 2016 by StooperZero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Hacksaw Jim-Just go buy a pre-war Colt 38 Super, kick it around in the garage floor a lot and it's a beater. If CJL does a batch of conversion kits, you are set, pal. Join the Lebman revolution with us. Working on Winchester 07s now, another correct Lebman clone. (with CJL)Some other things too. Edited February 14, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StooperZero Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 i visit 7+ shops a month.. no luck.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) There were quite a few people experimenting with shoulder stocks, long magazines, compensators and full auto capabilities for these pistols, including Colt! Both .45 and .38 caliber pistols were being used. I have very long factory magazines in both calibers and lots of pictures of such experiments that were not made by Lebman. I don't believe Lebman used actual Cutts compensators either. He made his own (as did others) that resembled the Cutts. I'm no expert but some of my limited knowledge comes from having interviewed Marvin Lebman some years ago. You are right, there were other people experimenting with this: Pretty Boy Floyd (1934) is said to have had a full-auto Colt .45 (but not a Lebman, at least as far as I know, since the one photo I have seen that claims to show his pistols display neither comps nor grips nor long magazine).Louis Fleisher (1938) also supposedly had a full-auto Colt (calibre claimed to be .38, but the one photo that shows it has only ammunition in .45 ACP on display; Fleisher's gun definitely has a Monarch grip and magazine, both clearly visible).The Colt conversions in .45 and .38 seem to date from 1938 or even WWII, meaning they are definitely out for the Dillinger gun. In short, the only one experimenting with full-auto Colts with comps and grips and long magazines in the early 1930s seems to have been Lebman. He is also the only gunsmith we KNOW supplied the Dillinger-Nelson Gang (we have the FBI files on Lebman, after all). If the converted pistol in the FBI display on the Dillinger Gang is not by Lebman, who else was the originator? So if we accept that Lebman was the creator of the pistol depicted in the FBI display, where did he get his magazines? I don't think he produced them himself. At least one other Lebman conversion uses the long, slightly curved 25-round magazine made by Star for their machine pistols (see Nelson/Musgrave, pp. 280-281). We know that this magazine was imported into the USA, since Stoeger offers it in his 1932 catalogue. But the Spanish didn't offer magazines for the .38 Super Auto. They did make some for .38 ACP, but I don't know whether those would work. To my knowledge, there was only one source in the USA in the early 1930s for an extended magazine in .38 Super Auto: Monarch. Why would Lebman not use that? More questions than answers, certainly, but I love speculating Cheers HANS Edited February 14, 2016 by HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now