Hyman S. Lebman, Gunsmith To The Outlaws

[jim c 351]

Hans,

You are certainly asking all the right questions. One has to wonder why these questions were not asked years ago.

Perhaps the FBI wasn't interested in such facts as to whether the Colts and Winchesters were truly full auto, but only portraying the bad guys as evil as possible. It made the FBI looked better when they killed or captured them.

I have always considered the idea of a FA Winchester 1907 and FA colt pistol a really stupid idea, but they may have exited. Or not.

Jim C

PS was it ever resolved whether Waco David Koresh ever processed FA firearms as the government alleged ?? Could be a similar situation.

[TEXAS MGC]

Hans,

Have you read Lebman's statement to Gus T Jones on April 29, 1934? It's a very detailed statement including little known info on Stockmeyer in El Paso.

[OCM]

Jim-

I agree, the FA Winchester 07s & the Colt minis were interesting ideas, I've always viewed those as " gangster toys " , never made much sense. More gun power, why not have them I guess. Nelson may have sold others on the " you gotta have these, they are converted to full auto" .

If you get a chance read famous Dillinger biographer, Joe Pinkston's book, Dillinger a short and violent life " 1962. He gives a first person account from constable Carl Christensen, on Baby Face Nelson opening up on him and two others with a " 45 Colt converted to a machine gun, with a long clip and a pistol grip....." He wounded two and killed one agent with this. Christensen was hit in the lungs, liver, chest, hip, arm and ankle by this uncontrolled blast but lived.

I have a picture of him holding his coat, later on, that looks like it was hit with a shotgun, but no a Colt mini and the insane Nelson.

[Tman]

Jim, on your PS above, some of the guns taken out of the burned ruins at Mt. Carmel had been converted to FA. I carried most of them into the courtroom in San Antonio for the trial. Messed up my suit with black soot. Out of approximately 300 firearms recovered at the scene, 22 AR15's, 20 AK type, 2 HK SP89's and 2 M11/Nine's were converted to full auto. Also found were 21 silencers/sound suppressors.

[jim c 351]

Greg,

Thanks for the info.

I watched the hearings on TV , but my memory fails me at this time.

Jim C

[HANS]

Hans,

You are certainly asking all the right questions. One has to wonder why these questions were not asked years ago.

Perhaps the FBI wasn't interested in such facts as to whether the Colts and Winchesters were truly full auto, but only portraying the bad guys as evil as possible. It made the FBI looked better when they killed or captured them.

I have always considered the idea of a FA Winchester 1907 and FA colt pistol a really stupid idea, but they may have exited. Or not.

 

I've talked to Tom Wilkinson of Bull Creek Arms, who made some of the carbine replicas, and he said the ones in Tucson weren't full-auto. Apparenlty he had access.

 

Still trying to find out more about the pistols, but I think it's pretty definitive that they were full-auto, since Lebman himself said that at least about the one he still had on his workbench.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[HANS]

Hans,

Have you read Lebman's statement to Gus T Jones on April 29, 1934? It's a very detailed statement including little known info on Stockmeyer in El Paso.

 

Yes, I have, but while the two statements are very interesting there are very large holes in them. Lebman never mentioned the carbines or any of the machine pistols other than the one the BOI seized on his bench (not the one found in Dillinger's apartment). He also mentioned only six of the at least eight TSMGs he sold to Nelson. In other words, he only admitted what he couldn't deny. The rest is not in there.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited April 30, 2016 by HANS

[HANS]

If you get a chance read famous Dillinger biographer, Joe Pinkston's book, Dillinger a short and violent life " 1962. He gives a first person account from constable Carl Christensen, on Baby Face Nelson opening up on him and two others with a " 45 Colt converted to a machine gun, with a long clip and a pistol grip....." He wounded two and killed one agent with this. Christensen was hit in the lungs, liver, chest, hip, arm and ankle by this uncontrolled blast but lived.

I have a picture of him holding his coat, later on, that looks like it was hit with a shotgun, but no a Colt mini and the insane Nelson.

 

Very interesting! I have not yet been able to track this book down.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Joe was my mentor. He was studying the history of Dillinger when things were fresh. He was an Indiana boy, got close to the Dillinger family and had the largest museum of Dillinger artifacts in the world. He was researching this stuff in the 50s.

He's the only one I know, that met Billie Frechette and interviewed her. Knew Audrey, Kinder and others that were still alive then.

We were friendly Dillinger memorabilia competitors, but he was the king.

His book is a book of many personal interviews, historical research and facts.

Bill Helmer & I traveled the Dillinger trail for over a week in the late 80s, one thing was spending the day with Joe & his museum. No photos were allowed, but he let my have at- recorded 180 photos of the museum and it's contents. this was pre-digital days.

 

His book reads like a college history book, rather rare, but it's out there. I use it as a basic source when my memory fades on me. i.e. the Carl Christensen Little Bo saga. Next in line would be Helmer's book, way easier and more entertaining reading.

 

OCM

[Mike Hammer]

Hans: This book is readily available and can be had for 6-7 dollars shipped, these are reprint issues, an original 1st edition from "62 are a bit more expensive.

Mike Hammer

 

If you get a chance read famous Dillinger biographer, Joe Pinkston's book, Dillinger a short and violent life " 1962. He gives a first person account from constable Carl Christensen, on Baby Face Nelson opening up on him and two others with a " 45 Colt converted to a machine gun, with a long clip and a pistol grip....." He wounded two and killed one agent with this. Christensen was hit in the lungs, liver, chest, hip, arm and ankle by this uncontrolled blast but lived.

I have a picture of him holding his coat, later on, that looks like it was hit with a shotgun, but no a Colt mini and the insane Nelson.

 

Very interesting! I have not yet been able to track this book down.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[TEXAS MGC]

Interseting article that I came across while researching a court case. I wonder if there are any leftovers in the basement of 111 South Flores in San Antonio???

LEBMAN.pdf

[OCM]

Maybe I should change my computer ID name to Mayne Huttner. Thanks Bart for sending the article, a good read.

 

Best,

 

Mayne

[OCM]

Kinda lost in this thread, but post #48 shows a fairly common photo of the Tucson Lebman guns. ( I'll add it again here from my lost CD ) . Now closer observation shows Sheriff John Belton ( L ) and Police Chief C.A. Wollard ( R) holding the two Winchester 1907 Lebman conversions, both sporting the 10 Rd magazines.

Behind is the Winchester 85 and the Savage 99 , just spot the revolver too, and barely the Savage 99H.

As I remember there was some discussion about the 10 round magazines, I think.

 

OCM

Edited August 17, 2016 by OCM

[HANS]

As I remember there was some discussion about the 10 round magazines, I think.

 

We talked quite a bit about the magazines. I continue to be unconvinced that there were ever any others than 10-rounders in these, both from the photographical evidence and the fact that noone has ever seen any 20-round magazines (other than those made post-WWII). Frankly, I think those old FBI guys simply had no clue about weapons (no offence, of course, as they didn't really need to). I'm currently going through the Barker-Karpis files, and the gun-related mistakes in the reports are staggering. BARs misidentified as R80 Monitors, serial numbers read upside down (leading to dozens of memos and teletypes back and forth until they figured it out!), etc, etc. You'll remember that they also found a Lebman Carbine in Russell Gibson's apartment. Its magazines are described as "20 shot". By the time the weapon is examined in the laboratory, those mags are supposed to have held "25 shots" ...

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

there is no doubt about this, these cops had never seen anything like these outlaw weapons. In Joplin, the police called a BAR a machine gun rifle..They had never seen a military weapon called a BAR.

No fault to them, but it does confuse historical research and writings 80 years later.

I can't give specifics, but through the years I've run across all sorts of mistakes in the files recorded back in the day. It was minor to them at the time, a big deal to us now. ( at least to me ) All innocent stuff.

[OCM]

Wonder if HS would approve of this... Been trying for about 6 months to see if there is any outlaw connection to the Model 12s. Haven't found anything yet but I got this old gal anyway. Never know when the Mallard Gang will attack. Gun is a straight bore, has the cool old Cutts on it. Think Lebman Winchester 07.

 

Side Note: My pal, the Indiana retired Sheriff, told of the story back there where the local Preacher had borrowed the Sheriff's Winchester model 12 pump, ran into some guy they were looking for, involved in a homicide. Preacher ran into him, held the trigger down on the Model 12 and pumped away. Killed the guy. ( or something close )

 

 

 

 

OCM

[StooperZero]

nice , always liked that brake.

i had that and an early poly-choke on some old ithaca 37's i bought a few years ago .

 

 

 

 

 

I talked to an 'individual' one day whose job was basically a bounty hunter tracking down pedophiles with warrants in the western states in the 50's-60's . All he used was a 1911 and a model 12.

[OCM]

Probably shouldn't of posted this old classic " duck gun " on the Lebman site, but have been into buying great old guns to add to my small collection, with the Lyman made Cutts, I kinda sneaked in. The craftsmanship and patina of these old gals is just stunning. Buy them now while they're cheap, before our next Pres shows up !!!

 

Everyone I buy, I'm on a great learning curve.

[Colt Chopper]

OCM, I have sent you PM

[jim c 351]

Sandy,

Your Winchester looks like it may have been an original 20 inch barrel riot gun. If the barrel is marked cyl over the chamber then it probably was a riot.

Jim C

[OCM]

Jim-

Yes it is a 20" barrel without the Cutts and is a marked CYL. Has had some good use to it. Guy I bought it from made that clear that it was " rare" and a marked cylinder ( CYL) . No other marking that I could find, straight bore, choked at the end. I'll check under the buttstock today too.

 

Thanks-

[jim c 351]

Sandy,
In the movie the Untouchables", Kevin Kostner used a Model 12 to shoot bad guys.

Knowing how historically accurate the movies are, the real Eliot Ness no doubt also used a M12, and you are the owner of his gun.

Too bad about the Cutts. The real Eliot Ness would have never used a Cutts gun.

Jim C

[OCM]

I pulled the Cutts off this morning and tossed it- Nice old Cutts, stamped logo and all, but accuracy is extreme in my camp.

Been on there a long time, no problem with a pipe wrench and a bench vice tho-

That's again for the advice. I know Kostner would of carried.

[StooperZero]

did you un-solder the base of it and remove the whole thing or just cap it ?

[OCM]

Kidding !!! muzzle brake stays on the gun. However I don't really know how to remove it, which I need to, to clean. There is a set screw on it like the one on the Lebman 07. CJL I think told me the one on the 07 screws off. No soldering that I'm aware of.

Any ideas ? I'd like to take the whole thing ( gun) apart for a complete cleaning. I've taken it apart ( take down) for cleaning but that's all. Removing the pin to get the plug out will be fun, little tiny spring thing that you push in. Trigger group one screw. etc.

Edited January 4, 2017 by OCM