Hyman S. Lebman, Gunsmith To The Outlaws

[HANS]

Kinda got lost here in this thread.

I believe the Lebman gun on display is the 38 Super with select fire, one of the more modern ones he did and was recovered at the Lincoln Court apartment battle with Dillinger. Has the 7 slot muzzle brake , believed to be manufactured by Lebman in his shop. Don't know what the grip is on display, still could be something the Navy was experimenting with, I just don't know.

Some photos of the Lincoln Court Apt gun, the Nelson Army 45 Lebman conversion and contemporary versions, some work in progress.

Opps- can't be the Lincoln Court Apt 38 Super, has the 5 slot Comp.... The Nelson gun has the Lebman made front grip.

 

Was this the Van Meter gun that was on the bench when Lebman was arrested ? ( new Monarch conversion attempt, not finished yet ?)

 

 

Thank you very much for the photo of the chap holding a Lebman. Who is it? Are those the weapons found in the Lincoln Court apartment? Is there a better resolution available?

 

So you are saying that the .38 Lebman found at Lincoln Court definitely has a 5-slot comp and a TSMG grip broken or cut off at the front? Is it the one with #176198? Great, one nailed down!

 

1. Colt Super .38 Automatic (#176198) with 5-slot comp, TSMG grip broken or cut off at the front, and 22-round (?) straight magazine. SOURCE: Your photo #2.

2. Colt Super .38 Automatic (#???) with 7-slot comp, TSMG grip broken or cut off at the front, and 22-round (?) straight magazine. Possible Monarch grip panel. SOURCE: FBI display, your photo #3.

3. Colt M1911 (#???) with 7-slot comp, home-made grip, and 25-round curved Star magazine. SOURCE: Nelson/Musgrave. Your photo #1 seems to be the same gun without magazine.

4. Colt Government (#???) with 7-slot comp, TSMG grip broken or cut off at the front, and a 25-round straight magazine. SOURCE: Nelson/Musgrave.

5. Colt Government (#???) with 7-slot comp, home-made grip, and a 18-round straight magazine. SOURCE: Nelson/Musgrave.

 

#4 or #5 might have been the one found one Lebman's workbench, although I understand it wasn't finished. Lebman was prosecuted for possessing government property (ie, a stolen M1911), but that was a nickeled normal pistol, not a conversion. It follows that the unfinished gun was not an M1911, but a Government.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[kwill]

Colt was experimenting with long barrels, magazines, shoulder stocks and full auto as early as 1917 and produced full auto Super .38 pistols in 1934 and 1940. A British inventor patented a shoulder stock for Colt O frame pistols in 1936 to go with long magazines the RAF had been producing for WWI pilot use. Below is a picture of a guy that did it himself in the 1940s. It looks like he cobbled together 2 magazines. So, I don't accept the premise that Lebman was the ONLY guy around experimenting with such an idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Custom/Full%20Auto/Capture_zps4nkevlro.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Custom/Full%20Auto/19114_zpsllotk9sm.jpg

My Super .38 magazine made by Colt. I also have one just like this for a .45.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Custom/Full%20Auto/DSC_0009_zpse3rkq5wq.jpg

Not sure who this maker is:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Custom/Full%20Auto/CI-128_zpsxzgtndms.jpg

[OCM]

I had to dump a couple photos for room- ( resend if you need )

 

Ramos did a bang up job on the Lebman 1911 progress in a article in SAR, years ago. I have the copy, but buried in a remodel last year. Talked about the Spanish Company, Star etc and may be where Lebman got his ideas to do the Colt minis. We've done a lot on the subject is previous posts.

 

The fronts of the grips were cut down by Lebman. I'm sure the 38 Super is the one recovered at the St Paul shoot out, left behind by Dillinger. Where Lebman got the magazines I have no idea but with his talents could of made them I bet.

He'd been in the gun business since the 20s running guns to the Pancho Via gang. Also was supplying Thompsons to Nelson in St Paul, buying from Texas outlets, including the famous Texas gun store of Wolf & Klar, where MG Kelly got his Thompson. Don't know about Floyd having a FA 1911, but Helmer said Lebman had supplied the Winchester 07 to him, which was ( probably ) FA. There is a picture of it with Floyd's Thompson. Also others.

Lots of things going on in 33-34, amazing connections . Helmer knows this stuff, much better memory then I.

 

On the Colt mini with the handmade grip, the other side shows the numbers had been removed and the FBI has a E-130 evidence number on it ( I guess I did post that side ) . It also has a bolt stuck thru it where I believe the select fire switch went. Rick Cartridge told me Lebman was making his own grips. He was going to write a book on Lebman but never did, and is gone now. Helmer was too as he knew Lebman ( & Marvin) doing his book, but never has.

 

I know Nelson had one at the Little Bohemia battle, killed with it- We have the Dillinger/St Paul one ( FBI), the homemade grip one( FBI ) and the guy ( unknown to me ? ) with one he is holding ( FBI) the one on display with the FBI and one caught with Lebman at his saddle shop in San Antonio. Also rumored the Karpis had one, which is very probable. ( be St Paul). Also a picture of one sitting on a table in the FBI headquarters and one in the newspaper article about Hyman Saul Lebman.

 

Hans, I'm not familiar with the Nelson/Musgrave book, my library was sold to the National Crime & Punishment Museum, had a couple Nelson books but don't remember what.

 

Kwill- Wonder if that's a George F. Cake made " banana" clip ?

 

Be fun to short this out-

Edited February 15, 2016 by OCM

[HANS]

Colt was experimenting with long barrels, magazines, shoulder stocks and full auto as early as 1917 and produced full auto Super .38 pistols in 1934 and 1940. A British inventor patented a shoulder stock for Colt O frame pistols in 1936 to go with long magazines the RAF had been producing for WWI pilot use. Below is a picture of a guy that did it himself in the 1940s. It looks like he cobbled together 2 magazines. So, I don't accept the premise that Lebman was the ONLY guy around experimenting with such an idea.

 

Well, Lebman still was the only one we know had definitive connections to Dillinger et al. I find it extremely unlikely that they would have located TWO different gunsmiths, right about the same time, who would make them weapons that look like they were made by the same guy ... Especially since the Bureau of Investigation traced one of them (Lebman), but could find no evidence for a second one. To my mind, there is absolutely no doubt that the converted pistol in the FBI display on Dillinger is a Lebman. I am not certain about the Monarch grip panel and magazine, but at least the grip does look like one. We have to wait until we get a photo with better resolution.

 

Your unknown curved magazine looks exactly like the ones made by Star of Spain. Nelson/Musgrave depict one just like it in a Lebman-converted M1911 with 7-slot comp and home-made grip. The magazines were imported by Stoeger.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited February 15, 2016 by HANS

[HANS]

Ramos did a bang up job on the Lebman 1911 progress in a article in SAR, years ago. I have the copy, but buried in a remodel last year. Talked about the Spanish Company, Star etc and may be where Lebman got his ideas to do the Colt minis. We've done a lot on the subject is previous posts.

 

The fronts of the grips were cut down by Lebman. I'm sure the 38 Super is the one recovered at the St Paul shoot out, left behind by Dillinger. Where Lebman got the magazines I have no idea but with his talents could of made them I bet.

On the Colt mini with the handmade grip, the other side shows the numbers had been removed and the FBI has a E-130 evidence number on it ( I guess I did post that side ) . It also has a bolt stuck thru it where I believe the select fire switch went. Rick Cartridge told me Lebman was making his own grips.

 

I know Nelson had one at the Little Bohemia battle, killed with it- We have the Dillinger/St Paul one ( FBI), the homemade grip one( FBI ) and the guy ( unknown to me ? ) with one he is holding ( FBI) the one on display with the FBI and one caught with Lebman at his saddle shop in San Antonio. Also rumored the Karpis had one, which is very probable. ( be St Paul). Also a picture of one sitting on a table in the FBI headquarters and one in the newspaper article about Hyman Saul Lebman.

 

Hans, I'm not familiar with the Nelson/Musgrave book, my library was sold to the National Crime & Punishment Museum, had a couple Nelson books but don't remember what.

 

I'm familiar with the article by Ramos, but it doesn't really answer any of the questions I have

 

On the photos you posted, the M1911 Lebman seems to have a bolt through it, not the Super 38 Lebman. Could it have been a push-button rather than a selector lever?

 

Are you saying the Lebman held up by the chap on your third photo is a different one than the Dillinger/Lincoln Court one? That would be interesting. Where was that arsenal found?

 

Could you post the photo of the one sitting on a table in the FBI headquarters? It might be one of those we already know, or not.

 

The book I'm referring to is by Thomas Nelson and Daniel Musgrave THE WORLD'S MACHINE PISTOLS AND SUBMACHINE GUNS (1980). Excellent source on all full-automatic pistols, including the Spanish patterns and their magazines.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

H-

With some of this, I don't think there is an answer anymore, lost in time. I'm never surprised with what pops up tho- When I started this thread, it's going the way I hoped, information on Lebman as there is very little.

I can't count the slots in the gun the gentleman is holding, so can't say it's the Colt Super 38 conversion and the slots may throw us off anyway. I don't know where I got this either- With a Thompson, the Colt mini AND two Winchester 07s, it usually smells like Lebman.

The FBI loaned out and borrowed guns for their various displays around the country, so the groupings are all mixed up. i.e. Lincoln Court guns, Little Bohemia guns, Tucson guns, really wasn't an FBI concern, these were just gangster weapons confiscated. Now it's historical 80 years later.

My understanding the display guns all went to Quantico for general security and to open that place up to research is a moot point.

The photo of the Colt mini on the table is a fairly common one, if I can't find it on computer files would take way to long to dig it out of files, sorry. Do a Google search. It's a display of the Colt mini, a Thompson, I think JD's straw hat and some other things, on a table under a FBI plaque of fallen agents. Larry Wack may have it on his site?

 

Great you got that old book, we can hit you up for information- Thanks for the info so far.

 

My quest is on Lebman information tied to the 30s bad guys.

[HANS]

The photo of the Colt mini on the table is a fairly common one, if I can't find it on computer files would take way to long to dig it out of files, sorry. Do a Google search. It's a display of the Colt mini, a Thompson, I think JD's straw hat and some other things, on a table under a FBI plaque of fallen agents. Larry Wack may have it on his site?

 

Great you got that old book, we can hit you up for information- Thanks for the info so far.

 

I think I found it. The Lebman is much clearer on this photo, if at an unfortunate angle. One can tell it's a .38 (crimp in magazine) and that it does not have a Monarch grip panel.

 

I have examined Larry Wack's excellent report on Dillinger's Colt Pocket Hammerless 380. This includes a fairly clear photo of that gun, which shows a large screw and nut drilled through the pistol to afix it to the wall. I now believe this is what we can see on the blurry photo of the Lebman 38 in the FBI display: two large nuts as well as residue from the card that was mounted on the Lebman in the original display. The nuts and residue are what makes it look like an aluminium Monarch grip panel from which the paint has peeled off. Pretty shabby way to treat a gun ...

 

So I think I have disproved my own theory

 

I still believe it's a Lebman, though, since I can't see what else it might be.

 

PS: Absolutely, I can quote from Nelson as much as you wish. Unfortunately, Nelson does not SAY much about the Lebman guns. He has some excellent photos, though.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Yep, that's it. In the horizontal FBI display they used cards stuck on the guns, probably correct in the second display they did, probably screwed the card on the guns....Haaaaa.

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by OCM

[HANS]

The Remington Model 8 (third from left) is interesting, I have never seen one mentioned in connection with the Dillinger-Nelson Gang.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Probably because of the sticking Browning designed floating barrel. Only connection I recall is with Prentis Oakley wacking Clyde in the head with one. The Rem 8 was a private owned gun, by a dentist, Dr. Shehee, in Gibsland/Arcadia, La., so wouldn't be with the FBI.

 

I had one, was way overshadowed by my Winchester 07. Good for bear or Clyde Barrow at 20 yards !

[StooperZero]

Just go buy a pre-war Colt 38 Super, kick it around in the garage floor a lot and it's a beater. If CJL does a batch of conversion kits, you are set, pal.

 

 

usually things that get kicked across the garage floor wind up laying there for months at a time.

 

 

Theres a big nasty shot out breda 37 barrel on the floor that i walk over almost every day. I could pick it up , but then i might get an idea on what to do with it.

Edited February 20, 2016 by StooperZero

[OCM]

Understand, if I had a 1933 Colt Super 38, it would be hard to TIG weld a front grip hanger on it. Maybe not ????

[OCM]

Just finished my Lebman Colt Mini project, just posted on the Nelson thread too.

Fully operable and legal.

Added some build photos with the CJL kit installed.

Edited March 23, 2016 by OCM

[Gio]

Congratulations OMC looks great. I have enjoyed fowling this build. Makes me want to build one as 1911's are my favorite pistol.

 

Good luck with it.

 

Frank

[OCM]

It was a fun build, thanks. It's kinda split between the Nelson thread and this Lebman thread, accidently doubled up a bit-

Fun sharing the build with those interested. CLJ & I are looking at a new Lebman Winchester 1907 project. He's become a fairly, actually a good, gunsmith on the 07s now. I think he feels sorry for me and helps me with these builds- Just a damn kid ya know. Haaaaaaaa

 

OCM

[ron_brock]

OCM,

 

Let me know if he'd be willing to make an extra forearm or if we could obtain dimensions. I have a comp I bought, but they ran out of forearms before I could get one from the other outfit. I keep bugging them to make another run.

 

Ron

[OCM]

Ron, we're waiting on that too. Trying to see if CJL can get to Tucson and field stip the 07s, clean them for then, check for rust etc, and record what Lebman did to them This Peru/Tucson thing I see going on the forum, may shut the door on the historical venture.

Keep you posted if we hear that Tom makes a run-

 

Sandy

[OCM]

Wonder what Lebman charged Dillinger, Nelson, Van Meter for these ?

Edited May 12, 2016 by OCM

[HANS]

Has there ever turned any evidence up that Lebman actually manufactured the Dillinger machine carbines out of the Winchester Model 07s? It is, of course, the most likely explanation, but upon reading the FBI files on Dillinger I can't find any clues pointing to that fact. Lebman certainly didn't mention it in his statement to the Bureau. So -- has anyone turned up anything on this? Many thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited March 28, 2016 by HANS

[HANS]

And another question regarding the converted Winchester Model 07s, these all have the unique compensator, was this a commercially available item or was it custom-built, like the compensators on the machine pistols? Thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[jl7422]

I believe the compensator used on the 1907 conversions to be a commercial offering by Cutts. It matches the patent drawing they submitted for a rifle compensator, and I have seen photos of this comp. mounted on a BAR and an 03 Springfield.

[HANS]

I believe the compensator used on the 1907 conversions to be a commercial offering by Cutts. It matches the patent drawing they submitted for a rifle compensator, and I have seen photos of this comp. mounted on a BAR and an 03 Springfield.

 

Thanks! I have found some material on the Cutts compensators for the Springfield M1903, they look indeed very similar. Were these commercially available? I have never seen them in period catalogues or the like.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[HANS]

More questions on Lebman, even more basic:

 

How do we know the modified Model 07s were converted by Lebman? Granted, it seems logical in light of the converted machine pistols, but has there been any concrete evidence? I've trawled through the entire FBI Dillinger file (with the exception of Section 20, which is missing) and could not find anything on this.

 

How do we know the modified Model 07s were full-automatic? It seems logical in light of the converted machine pistols, but then again even a 10-round magazine is rather small for a full-automatic weapon. Has there been any concrete evidence for the full-auto conversion? Again, I've trawled through the entire FBI Dillinger file and could not find anything on this. In fact, it seems the FBI didn't even test-fire the .38 machine pistol they found in Dillinger's apartment, instead sending an agent to Colt to ask if such a conversion were possible. Has someone been able to test-fire the captured carbines?

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Sorry Hans, can't help you on that. Let us know what you uncover.

 

OCM

[HANS]

So I'm reading Helmer and Nickel's BABY FACE NELSON, and they make some pretty specific statements as to when Gillis acquired three of the Lebman Machine Pistols. I'm wondering how they know. Unfortunately the book isn't footnoted. Lebman never mentioned this in his two statements to the Bureau, and Gillis didn't leave a biography. Chase wasn't with Gillis at the time, so he couldn't know. It's not in the FBI files as far as I can see. Are there any sources I'm overlooking?

 

Cheers

 

HANS