1921 #3992: What is that mark?

[JJX]

Hello all

 

Has anyone here inspected 1921 # 3992 or know the history of it? I first thought the wavy line on the right rear was a hair, then a scratch, but I do not know. I do not see it continue in the photo with the patent dates. Any information is appreciated.

 

[reconbob]

It is either a scratch (maybe gouge is a better word) that has been blued over

(otherwise it would look like raw steel - white or silver colored - as the scratch would

have scraped off the finish. Or it is a flaw in the steel. Thompsons were machined

from big pieces of steel which are rolled into bars and then machined. If there is

Carbon or some other element that is present it prevents the steel from fusing together

and the result is an elongated flaw in the steel. This would usually be noticed right

away - you can't miss it - so possibly the flaw was there and only became noticeable

with the passage of time and long term effect of stress relieve, air, light, temperature,

etc. if this is such a flaw - and I can't tell from the pictures- it's a big deal because it

is actually a crack which will certainly not get better. The only was to fix it would be

to machine away the bad part and weld it up. This of course it out of the question.

I have made thousands of receivers over 30+ years for a variety of guns and in

all that time we had one occurrence of a carbon flaw or crack. This was obvious as

soon as we face milled the raw bar and we immediately pulled it from the line

because as noted it would take too much time and effort to fix so we just discarded

the piece and moved on.

 

Bob

[bug]

Looks like a scratch. It does continue into the Pat Dates at the second May 25 1920. Some of the pics look like they have been "softened" via Photoshop or the like. Wonder what the inside looks like.

 

Bob D

[TD.]

NO 3992 was first purchased by the Toledo, Ohio Police Department. This department had a number of Colt era Thompsons. Just guessing I would say E.E. Richardson was the salesman. If so and if there would have been a problem with any of their Thompson guns, Richardson would have taken care of it.

 

Pictures are nice but an in-person inspection is warranted on any Thompson gun at today's prices. Is this Thompson in a private collection?

[R67]

this is a nice gun

[JJX]

Reconbob, Thank you for such a detailed explanation.

 

TD, It is being auctioned by Buds Gun shop and I agree a personal inspection is warranted.

They responded to my question today also and I will look elsewhere. They said:

The receiver was changed to accommodate full-auto capabilities by Cromwell Mfg. It appears to just be a messy weld in that where the mark is.

[ron_brock]

Something doesn't add up.

http://www.egunner.com/thompson-auto-ordnance-model-1921-45acp,name,5200872,auction_id,auction_details

 

 

Ron

[Black River Militaria CII]

>The receiver was changed to accommodate full-auto capabilities by Cromwell Mfg. It appears to just be a messy weld in that where the mark is.<

 

The requires much further explanation! Please elaborate on both statements!

[m60mgman]

Looking at the better photos I think it was a scratch which was carefully touched up with cold blue at some point. On the right I see a small newer scratch on top of the old blued one.

 

Look at the left side of the old scratch. The darker color of the touch up varies a bit in width. The scratch can be seen as a thinner line within the darker blue.

 

Edit: Note the butt stock isn't included.

 

Just my humble opinion. A nasty scratch with a touch up at some point in the guns history.

Edited September 15, 2016 by m60mgman

[JJX]

I know, but that is how they responded to my question!

[reconbob]

I zoomed the picture of the scratch. Look at the scratch where it goes thru

The U in USA. it is appears to be shifted - right side of the scratch line is slightly higher

than on the left. I wonder if this could be a crack that is causing separation of the

steel on either side. If you ran your fingernail across the scratch would you feel a step?

Or a divot?

This is certainly not a weld as the engraving other than the scratch is OK. If it was

a weld the engraving would have been melted/fused in the weld.

And yeah, what the heck does "changed to accommodate full auto capabilities"

mean? The guns a full auto. What would need to be changed? It will be interesting

to see what's going on here. Evil forces may be at work...

 

Bob

[MARK2112]

Im going with crack....too heavily shadowed to be a scratch

[Bob]

Bob Landies might know as he had it at one time.

[buzz]

I think it looks like a nice gun and if I was in the market for a Thompson I would be tempted to buy it.

 

Price seems fair. Right now it is anyway.

 

No, it's not mine.

 

 

There are two possibilities about the scratch on the gun -

 

1. It's some weird metal inclusion or flaw that made a crack in the receiver decades and decades after the gun was lovingly crafted by Colt.

 

2. Some policeman threw it in the trunk of his car on top of his tire iron and it got a big old scratch on it. And somebody put some cold blue on it.

 

I'm going to go with Guess #2, because it's a very common occurrence to put a scratch on a gun. Plus it looks like a big scratch.

 

Guess #1 is technically possible but is fairly rare. Metals do pick up some huge residual stress when they are hot rolled and cool, and sometimes there is an inclusion that causes a brittle fracture somewhere down the line.

 

But.. usually it takes many thousands of high stress load cycles to make the crack show up and I don't think the receiver gets stressed all that much in a direction normal to the bore axis. If the "crack" was on the heel then it would be more plausible.

 

 

So anyway that's my assessment: nice gun with a scratch on it, make a real nice shooter for someone.

 

 

As far as the hokus pokus about "Comwell coverting it to full auto" goes, I don't believe a single syllable of it. Just some gun shop bubba talk from a counter clerk.

 

What weld is done to a Colt receiver to make it "accommodate full auto capabilities"? I think they also do that weld on AK-16 assault revolvers.

Edited September 15, 2016 by buzz

[michaelkih]

Dang that's cheap, and if it's just a scratch, that gun is VERY nice!!

[darrylta]

I'd say it's Buzz's second option, a careless deep scratch by an officer back in the day.

Is it being offered with the buttstock? If so that will add another 1.5K to make it original.

Darryl

[m60mgman]

No butt stock is included.

[DOGLEG]

Does the pistol grip look correct?

[bug]

Does the pistol grip look correct?

 

I'd say it's a Colt or an excellent repro. There is some kind of a problem with its attachment to the grip frame. Perhaps it is just not fully tightened

[DOGLEG]

I should have been more precise with my post. I meant the fit more than anything.

[buzz]

Somebody got a great deal on a colt

[Sandman1957]

Dan Block can instantly fix the missing stock...

[DOGLEG]

I had asked them if they knew whether the gun had original Colt internals. They did not know. I asked if they would take a few more pictures so I could tell. They said they would not take it out of the safe. I did not bid at that point.

[ron_brock]

I had asked them if they knew whether the gun had original Colt internals. They did not know. I asked if they would take a few more pictures so I could tell. They said they would not take it out of the safe. I did not bid at that point.

If this was a consignment, I feel bad for the owner, or maybe not depending on what may or may not be hiding. An interesting sale to say the least based on pictures, description and seller's feedback to others. Hope the new owner let's us know how it is.

 

Ron