Mike Hammer Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 I have a question and I hope you might be able to help me out. My Transfer paperwork came through for a Thompson SMG on a form 4. Now I need to take possession of it from the previous owner.I am in Louisiana the gun is in central Fla. It just so happens that my brother-in-law is making a road trip to the area in Fla. where the gun is located, unfortunately I cannot make the trip.What I need to know Is it legal for him to pick up the gun from the previous owner and transport it back to me in Louisiana? The paperwork would be with the gun. It would certainly be safer and much cheaper than handing it over to FedEx for them to ship. It would seem to me that he would merely be doing the same thing that a FedEx employee would be doing wouldn't he? If it is legal, is there an ATF form that I would have to fill out to do this? Thanks in advance for your response. Mike H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 What I need to know Is it legal for him to pick up the gun from the previous owner and transport it back to me in Louisiana? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan K Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 How is the firearm going across state lines without going to an FFL/SOT? If the transfer is approved to an FFL/SOT, sending a bona fide employee to fetch it should be an acceptable form of transportation. I am aware of no regulation requiring a common carrier to be used. That said, I would suggest using USPS registered mail to ship it and insure for the current market value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 (edited) Both myself and the seller have C&R FFL’s so technically no I don't run a business. Edited February 27, 2022 by Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppgcowboy Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 Road trip.....beer run. Go pick it up and take in the sights at the beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 How is the firearm going across state lines without going to an FFL/SOT? If the transfer is approved to an FFL/SOT, sending a bona fide employee to fetch it should be an acceptable form of transportation. I am aware of no regulation requiring a common carrier to be used. That said, I would suggest using USPS registered mail to ship it and insure for the current market value. What I need to know Is it legal for him to pick up the gun from the previous owner and transport it back to me in Louisiana? NoDo you know of the specific clause in the AFT regulations that addresses this question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 (edited) The National Firearms Act Addresses everything: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download If the seller gives the MG to your brother, the Seller has committed a federal violation / felony. If your brother receives the MG from the seller, your brother has committed a federal felony. Every state that your brother possesses and transports the MG in between Florida and Louisiana are additional federal felony violations. Edited February 27, 2022 by inertord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 (edited) The National Firearms Act Addresses everything:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download If the seller gives the MG to your brother, the Seller has committed a federal violation / felony. If your brother receives the MG from the seller, your brother has committed a federal felony. Every state that your brother possesses and transports the MG in between Florida and Louisiana are additional federal felony violations.Then why is it not a felony to give your gun to USPS personnel or a FedEx personnel. They are transporting the gun just as someone I know would be transporting it. Technically there is little difference. It seems they should allow this as was done using a form 5 for transportation to a gunsmith. The transporter is not taking transfer or actual ownership of the gun but is merely acting as a courier. If the gun was boxed, sealed and addressed it's the same as FedEx or the post office delivering it. Looks like I will take my chances with the mail system, Oh yeah, I really trust those guys. Edited February 27, 2022 by Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted February 27, 2022 Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 Does a C&R allow you to send guns through the mail like a standard FFL? Or do you have to use FedEx or UPS like the rest of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted February 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2022 Does a C&R allow you to send guns through the mail like a standard FFL? Or do you have to use FedEx or UPS like the rest of us?Yes, C&R’s can ship to one another through the mail if the gun is a C&R. However UPS will not ship machineguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeport28A1 Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 Are you unable take a long three day weekend and drive to Florida and back to Louisiana to pick it up in person?Maybe rent a car to Florida and ride back with your brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRMCII Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 Have it well packed and ship it USPS, REGISTERED , PRIORITY, INSURED FOR FULL VALUE. Registered insurance is quite cheap, cheaper than for USPS priority and way cheaper than Fed-Ex, which your only other alternative for a reliable common carrier.A registered parcel is signed in and out of every stop along the way, is the most secure common carrier available and takes about twice as long as priority.I use it for shipping every firearm I ship with exceptions for the larger and heavier HMGS.Except for the USPS or FED-EX personnel DO NOT let any other person take possession of the MG at any time unless in your presence, period. If there is a #1 ATF compliance reg for legal possession of an MG by anyone, that is it......FWIW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 The reason UPS, USPS, and FedEx can do this is that they are bonded couriers. They are legally allowed to transport said package. Technically if you brother was a bonded courier then he could transport the gun to you BUT he wouldnt be able to have access to it-meaning its sealed in a package and can only be opened once you get it. The above mentioned came from a couple of class iii dealers Ive talked to about this same issue years ago as I was asking the same thing. Idk if this would work today or not, so double check the legality of this before acting. In the end its a hell of a lot easier to have it shipped next day FedEx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 The reason UPS, USPS, and FedEx can do this is that they are bonded couriers. They are legally allowed to transport said package. Technically if you brother was a bonded courier then he could transport the gun to you BUT he wouldnt be able to have access to it-meaning its sealed in a package and can only be opened once you get it. The above mentioned came from a couple of class iii dealers Ive talked to about this same issue years ago as I was asking the same thing. Idk if this would work today or not, so double check the legality of this before acting. In the end its a hell of a lot easier to have it shipped next day FedEx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger1385 Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 Does a C&R allow you to send guns through the mail like a standard FFL? Or do you have to use FedEx or UPS like the rest of us?Yes, C&R’s can ship to one another through the mail if the gun is a C&R. However UPS will not ship machineguns. Great discussion. On the side of caution, I would have shipped too. Not worth the hassle, although I seriously doubt many local leos know the law for transporting class three stuff. I have a C&R too and got it primarily to buy old machineguns. I was under the impression that I could receive C&R firearms from private persons as long as I document who I received from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBill Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 This topic has been well addressed but my horror story involving class3 travel with a C&R license occurred in the Spokane airport. I was travelling with a Thompson to Phoenix about six years ago and Washington is a non NFA state. Prior to my trip I swung by the ATF office in Spokane with my paperwork (form 4 and C&R license) .I explained my travel plans and the ATF (after making two phone calls) told me i would be fine if I traveled straight to the airport and boarded plane. Flying Southwest meant check in easy and TSA inspecting aluminum travel case was easy.No ammo,one stick mag and trigger was already zip tied.Along comes a Spokane Airport cop who looked at gun and asked me where i was from (not where i was going) Idaho? Well come with me? Okay I followed him to their office and he only made one phone call. As i sat in the windowless office with the fifty five (yes i counted them) security monitors his superior showed up and looked at my paperwork? I foolishly suggested they call Spokane ATF and they let me go? Back at the Southwest Counter I was too late for the plane. They were great and got me down to Phoenix via Oakland about five hours later. My Thompson? It went on the flight I was supposed to be on! I retrieved it from the PHX oversize luggage office for Southwest with no one monitoring me.Walked out airport exit and boarded rental car shuttle bus. How secure is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryo Posted February 28, 2022 Report Share Posted February 28, 2022 Washington is a non-MG and SBS state. All other NFA are legal here.That sucks you had to go through all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 MH, 26 USC 5845 and I'm too lazy to look up the subparagraph. Seller transfers to your BIL with no permission is "crime" #1 Your BIL taking possession with no approved transfer is #2 Interstate transport is from the GCA. "Contract Carrier" or "Common Carrier" are not defined, so if you apply some common sense and/or a dictionary it will be a business that transports goods or people for hire (probably one available to the public not just a one time job for a one time customer which would sink your battleship with most people). It's an individual Risk-Reward decision. Kind of up to your confidence level that in the unlikely event Murphy interferes with planning and every move is examined closely that your BIL will pass the straight face test with strangers who have no emotional investment in your hobby or bank account. I wouldn't even remotely consider it on a crack binge but that's just another no-cost internet opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) Thanks Ranger, got it.Only a pro carrier can carry the gun. On the other hand you may want to reconsider, since Biden is handing out free crack pipes, Ha. Edited March 2, 2022 by Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppgcowboy Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 That logic will only prevail if you and the transporter can prove you are a Crack or meth addicted Biden supporter. If you and the transporter can do that, you will get a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) That logic will only prevail if you and the transporter can prove you are a Crack or meth addicted Biden supporter. If you and the transporter can do that, you will get a pass.Truer words were never spoken as Biden's son got both a free pass on the illegal gun charge and his crack addiction. I guess you just have to know the right people. Edited March 2, 2022 by Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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