Original Savage Front Vertical Grip

[Skittorius]

Hi folks, I'm finally selling my original grip on GB, it's paired with a saw cut receiver parts kit and a Seymour "L" drum.  You may remember it from about six years ago when I battled Huggytree on the eBay auction, this is the same grip and if I remember correctly the seller was a member here as well. The glare from the lighting makes it look shinier than it really is.  I did wipe all the wood with a drop of boiled linseed oil and please pardon the cat hair 🙄 and yes his name is Tommy.   I'm in Henderson CO if any local members want to take a look-see.  Auction starts at one penny, no reserve.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Skittorius

[Ron Mills]

Saw cut = Go To Jail.  

[Skittorius]

Okay, just found out this sis a no-no now, but GB won't let me cancel the listing...  Anyone have suggestions ?  Can I just add a message to the listing stating it's not for sale anymore ? I'll be legally bound to sell to the high bidder but would they pursue me on an object that isn't allowed anymore ? 

[Ron Mills]

Can’t you edit the posting and exclude certain items?  I thought I had seen auctions ended by the seller before.  Maybe that was with 0 bids.  

[Skittorius]

GB won't let me end the listings with bids.  I did add a huge headline to the description though "ending" the auctions and saying no bids would be honored..  Hope that's enough keep me out of hot water.. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Skittorius

[Skittorius]

Thank you Ron, I had no idea. These seemed to be ok not too many years ago, GB was littered with saw cuts back then, that's where I bought them all. 

[mbc230]

Since the listing has bids on it. GB will not allow you to end it. I would send GB an Email or open up a case with them and explain to them the listing needs to be cancelled and let them know why. Just my two cents. Good luck.

Edited March 9, 2023 by mbc230

[mgvince]

Jut take the receiver to someone who can torch cut it.  Then let it sell.

[TD.]

If the receiver was saw cut many years ago, why would it be illegal today? Is there a law or rule that a properly destroyed receiver years ago has to be destroyed again?  If in doubt, sell the receiver to someone with the proper license to manufacture machine guns. I hear the commonly found touch cut receivers are welded together to make Post Sample machine guns. I know Dan Block has the proper license and has made Post Samples in the past. What am I missing? 

[Ron Mills]

I wasn’t aware there were bids already.  I’m not an attorney and don’t work for GB, just offering a suggestion.  There are many good folks on this board with vast experience that don’t want to see any of us land in the pokey.  I hope you keep us posted, no pun intended.  

[Robert Henley]

18 hours ago, TD. said:

If the receiver was saw cut many years ago, why would it be illegal today? Is there a law or rule that a properly destroyed receiver years ago has to be destroyed again?  If in doubt, sell the receiver to someone with the proper license to manufacture machine guns. I hear the commonly found touch cut receivers are welded together to make Post Sample machine guns. I know Dan Block has the proper license and has made Post Samples in the past. What am I missing? 

I had this same question when I saw the GB ad updated.  My recollection of saw cut receivers, which I've seen many sold on GB, was as long as it was cut legally to begin with it was legal.  The more extensive destruction of the receiver requirements came later in time than many originally saw cut receivers.  Am I missing something too, like a recent BATF change or ruling?  Can anyone cite the authority for such a change, if it exists?

[TD.]

Robert Henley,

Notice how no one has jumped in with an explanation. I was of the opinion (and only an opinion, not fact) that the touch cut receiver and barrel requirements having to displace so much metal was for firearms imported from outside the USA. The recent Royal Tiger Imports are a great example. I am also thinking this was a fairly recent requirement and if not followed, importation would be denied.

Destruction is never my first choice, especially when I don't know all the facts. Same with finding a Thompson someone's grandfather allegedly brought back from World War II. If it is still with the family and has been with the family for many years, take the time to hunt for registration paperwork. There is always a chance it was registered, especially Amnesty Registered in 1968. If it is a "dewat," there is also a good chance it was sold on a Form 5 years ago by a number of vendors. For example, Poulin Auction recently sold an early Savage Thompson parts kit that was registered on a Form 5 in 1964. How do I know this. The serial number is listed in my latest book, A Thompson Compendium. My guess is the original owner died and some machine gun expert told the family that the gun was illegal and had to be destroyed. Based on my research this Savage was a Savage Commercial Thompson with an excellent pedigree. Nothing like getting in a hurry and cutting up a 30K Thompson submachine gun. All this said, destruction may be the final outcome - but do not rush the process, especially if a surviving spouse and/or executor is involved. If it turns out to be unregistered, i.e., contraband, another option is to see if the local police department would want it, especially a larger city with a police museum. ATF just wants it with a lawful owner, not floating around in commerce.

[reconbob]

        It seems to be in vogue now to declare that a saw cut receiver will get you arrested. Most of

this (I think) is due to there was a guy on Gunbroker - for months - selling parts sets for PPs-43,

PPsH-41, etc. with single saw cut receivers. The ATF became aware of him, and since he had sold

something like 90 of them they went after him and he is in deep sh*t.

      These were single saw cut receivers. But I would think that any type of receiver saw cut into 3 

pieces sold with all three matching pieces would be a very high risk thing to do.

      I do not know if anyone has ever challenged the ATF on their position with the saw cut receivers.

I know many years ago they duct-taped a single saw cut STEN back together and were able to shoot

it.

      Back in the 1980's I wrote the ATF (no email back then) asking them about the correct /approved

way to destroy a machine gun and they sent me a reply where a cutting torch that burned away at least

1/4" had to be used along with pictures of different guns with slash marks showing where the cuts are

to be made. And this is over 40 years ago. Back then you could bring in barrels so in the case of a Thompson

one cut was thru the ejection port leaving the barrel and grip mount intact, and the other was 2/3 of the

way back. Now or course they require the front of the receiver where barrel thread is to be cut/destroyed.

 

    At one time in the late 1970's I was working with Sarco - he had hundreds of torch cut M1A1 Thompsons

in 50 gallon drums and wanted to get them welded up and made into guns. (Pre 1986 so it could have been

done.) But the receivers were too heavily torched and it was not feasible. But that far back guns were torched.

 

    If you think about it, if you are not a Thompson collector and you have to destroy 20 or 30 thousand guns

the fastest and most economical way to do it is by torch cutting. You put the guns on racks and go down the

line. Much faster and easier than sawing. I have also seen Thompsons that were destroyed by being chopped

into pieces in some type of giant press, but this would not be as fast as torching because each gun would have

to be fed/placed into to chopping press.

 

     So while a saw cut receiver may not be certain death, I have never known saw cutting to be an ATF

approved method of destruction. I think what could be done is to cut the receiver and throw away the

middle so you don't have a matching set of pieces to be able to weld/make a receiver. But I am not the

ATF...

 

Bob

[Varminter]

There is this ATF document from 2003 showing how to torch cut a receiver into three pieces.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/machinegun-destruction

Whether it was new guidance in 2003 going forward, no idea.

 

[APEXgunparts]

On 3/9/2023 at 12:23 PM, Skittorius said:

Okay, just found out this sis a no-no now, but GB won't let me cancel the listing...  Anyone have suggestions ?  Can I just add a message to the listing stating it's not for sale anymore ? I'll be legally bound to sell to the high bidder but would they pursue me on an object that isn't allowed anymore ? 

 

You need to contact GunBroker customer service.
As a seller you can't end an auction, only GunBroker has the admin privilege to end an auction.
They can and will stop an auction with bids if there is a problem with the listing.
They won't like to, and its going to be time consuming, but they can do it.
However, with a legal concern about the item, and a contractual concern as a seller, you need to contact GunBroker.
F2A Inc. is our firearms side and we have been thru that process.

Richard

[TSMGguy]

On 3/9/2023 at 9:18 AM, Ron Mills said:

Saw cut = Go To Jail.  

 

On 3/9/2023 at 1:19 PM, TD. said:

If the receiver was saw cut many years ago, why would it be illegal today? Is there a law or rule that a properly destroyed receiver years ago has to be destroyed again?  

If saw cutting was acceptable when the cuts were made, it is today. There's no requirement to go back and destroy the receiver again.

[TD.]

Great discussion. 

I do agree that the touch cut requirements pertain to importing machine guns into the USA. What I would like to see are the requirements for destroying a machine gun receiver already in the USA. I don't see why a receiver in the USA that is cut in half with a band saw is not a destroyed receiver. I do agree that two saw cuts would probably be much better than one saw cut and three or four would be even better - but what are the legal requirements. I am not trying to be argumentative; I really want to know. People talk about destruction all the time. Somebody has to know the answer and be able to point to the rules, regulations or guidelines. 

 

[inertord]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-properly-destroy-firearms

[TD.]

Excellent. I saw that poster and also saw that it was dated May 2018. I wonder what the requirements were prior to 2018. 

[reconbob]

    I don't think saw cutting a receiver was ever a method approved by ATF. So, while we

may encounter a saw cut receiver from long ago, it was never an ATF approved method.

I don't know that there is any specific law pertaining to this - its the ATF making the rules

as to what the definition of a firearm is. Of course cut up pieces of guns are not firearms

but common sense does no apply here...

Bob

 

[TD.]

Bob,

Excellent post but I have to disagree. I do believe saw cutting firearm receivers, including machine guns, was an approved ATF method in the past. If not officially approved via a memorandum or poster, saw cutting was certainly an acceptable method condoned by ATF for many years. I remember during the Cox era that many unregistered or what are now known as Form 10 Thompson guns were found in the inventories of police departments. Dealers would still trade for these guns to obtain the parts. The usual method of receiver destruction was to saw cut the center section of the Thompson receiver with two cuts to the right and left of the serial number area. This left the Thompson receiver in 4 pieces but more importantly preserved the rear Lyman sight and the barrel, grip mount and ejector. I recall Ohio Ordnance had for sale at the Houston Astrohall show in the mid-1980s several very well-used Model of 1921s part kits with saw cut receivers. I asked where these parts kits came from and was told Mexico. The price was around $1000 a kit. When attending gun shows during that era you had to watch your step or you would trip over the numerous saw cut STEN parts kit - for about $60 apiece. 

My interest is two-fold:

I want to know when the change from saw cut to touch cut occurred at ATF with guns in the USA.

I want to give the Internet experts pause from saying all saw cut machine gun receivers in circulation today must be torch cut to be legal - unless there is some directive, rule, regulation or law that states this. If one of those Colt parts kits from Ohio Ordnance was still possessed today by the original purchaser, I don't believe the kit would be illegal. I know the kits would be much more expensive and the receiver pieces very valuable to a someone who can legally manufacture Post Sample machine guns. I don't like it when the first response to anything is destruction. Yes, sometimes necessary, but always understand the reasoning why. For example, (and a big if) what if the guy selling the saw cut Russian submachine kits on gunbroker had possessed all these kits since the early 1980s when destruction by saw cutting was the norm. Why are the kits illegal today? Was it the number of kits? One kit would be OK, but 90 kits are now illegal. I just want to understand why.  

[Motorcar]

We are currently seeing ATF just make things up as they go under the DOJ direction, they clearly don't have the ability to "make" law and yet here we are. If I recall correctly, I recently viewed a video by the Armed Attorneys that briefly touched on saw cut vs. torched receivers using the same methodology of it was legal then....when did it change and why wouldn't it still be legal if they were saw cut prior to the change? Their video wasn't about saw cut receivers, they just used it as an example for the same argument about pistol braces, bump stocks, etc.

[reconbob]

      Well, we have agree to disagree. First of all we can throw out the GB guy with the single

saw cut PPs-43s because he was getting them smuggled in very recently.

      The various examples you describe - Roger Cox era, Houston Gun Show, STENs, etc. all took

place years after my official ATF letter mandating torch cut. So they got away with something and

either ATF did not know or did not care. Especially the single saw cut STENs. The single saw cut duct

taped shootable STEN had been banished by ATF long before 1980. So those STENS at the Houston 

show were not legal and the guys that sold them got away with it.

       And it’s one thing to have a few multiple saw cut receivers at a gun show, and another to be

selling them en masse. I have been in the business “officially” since 1971 when I first worked at

Sarco. and in those 50+ years - the Shotgun News years, then the internet years - I have never seen

or known of anyone selling single or multiple saw cut receivers “above board” via advertising. Low

profile - gun show, gun friends, yes but no Shotgun News, no Guns, Guns & Ammo, American Rifleman, etc.

magazines, and now of course the internet.

      The one exception there was a guy back int 1970’s named Wilke in Swastka, Ontario (I am not kidding)

who routinely advertised in the classified section of The Shotgun News and he would sell complete parts

sets with a single saw cut receiver from submachine guns all the way up to .50 BMG and mail them down

to USA. I got a M1918A2 BAR from the guy. It took them a while but they finally shut him down. Maybe up

in Canada the stuff was legal.

         My point is that saw cutting machine guns - especially single saw cut has never been ATF approved

and it’s mostly been one or two and probably mostly guys that had an unregistered gun (found when Dad the

WW2 vet passed away) and wanted to get rid of it without turning in to ATF. Not people selling publicly en masse. 
 

      Plus, if there had been (which there was not) a saw cut era, how would you document or prove that

your saw cut Thompson was cut in 1955 and not last week? Of course you can’t.

 

       My $0.02

 

Bob

[bob241]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/973772107

 

What about 2 saw cuts, and a de milled bolt, would this past muster, seems someone spent a lot of time fitting several receiver parts into a two saw cut receiver.

[Bridgeport28A1]

While described as torch cut Thompson receivers in this Apex Gun Parts listing. The three pictured clearly have a saw cut rear receiver portion along with torch cut sections.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/1928-thompson-project-cut-receiver-set-of-3-rusty-poor.html

More saw cut Thompson receiver pieces for sale.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/1928-thompson-center-front-receiver-section-rusty.html

Maybe Richard with Apex Gun parts can comment on how old the saw cut rear and front sections are?

In my collection I own a M1 and 1928 saw cut front end receiver stub both with their barrels and grip mounts attached. My assumption is they are from the “Russia parts kits” that to my knowledge were supposedly de-milled while in the USA in U.S. Customs and Border Protection bonded warehouses.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Bridgeport28A1