My first shooting experience was.......disappointing (UPDATED after attempt #2)

[Lawman9328]

Hi,

I'd like to get input from the masses on my recent trip to the range with my new Thompson....and the disappointment that followed.

Last week I finally picked up my new Thompson.  It is a West Hurley but all of the internals have been replaced with USG issue parts.  I previously posted pics on this forum and received several comments that it appeared my Thompson had been re-worked with a couple of people even saying it looked like PK's work.  Unfortunately, I checked with all of the folks who are known for their work on Thompsons and none of them had a record of working on a Thompson with my serial number.

Prior to receiving it, I had it sent to a relative who owns a gun store and has experience with Thompsons.  He said he test fired it and it worked fine.  I purchased a Bridgeport drum from him so I'm not sure if he test-fired using only the drum, a stick magazine, or both.  I'm awaiting his response on that one.

I went to the range last week to finally shoot my new acquisition and instead of leaving super excited, I went home disappointed.

I initially fired in semi-auto mode and didn't experience any issues.  My problems began when I went full auto.

I had several rounds that "failed to fire".  The action of the bolt seemed to work fine and the rounds seemed to go fully into the chamber.  However, when I tried to go full auto, it seemed that the longest burst I got was only about 4 or 5 rounds before it would stop.  When I would eject the "failed round" in the chamber, most of them had firing pin strikes on the primer (some looked like light strikes, others looked fine) (see attached photo)  For that first firing I was using Winchester Target & Practice .45 Auto 230 grain FMJ that I bought back in October 2022.

My first thought was that I was just unlucky and got a really bad batch of ammunition (I've since heard mixed reviews on the Winchester stuff).  So I tried PMC .45 Auto ammunition (what they sold at the range)....with the same result.  However the PMC rounds that failed to fire appeared to be more of a "no-strike" by the firing pin on the primer.  In addition, some (not all) of the PMC "failures" had markings on the casing just below the projectile (see photo 2).  The marks are not that deep....but there is a noticeable depression if I run the edge of my fingernail over the area.

Since I went to the range, I've given the Thompson another good cleaning.......and although I could not tell any difference between what I had in the gun and some spares I had available, I went ahead and replaced the firing pin, firing pin spring, and the recoil spring.

I am going to head back to the range in the next couple of days and I'd like to get input on any other actions I should take to help ensure success this next time.  In the event I continue to have the same issue, are there any things I should try or look for at the range that may help me diagnose the problem ?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated....

Thanks in advance,

Gene  (aka "Lawman9328")

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Lawman9328
Title change

[BLuongo]

Your problem may be a tight chamber. Original WW2 era Thompson barrels have slightly oversize chambers as do most GI machine guns. West Hurley barrels are chambered to tighter specs. Also you could check your feed areas in the reciever. I had to polish several areas, mostly by feel i.e. going back and forth from my WH gun to a my Colt 21 and Brigeport 28. Also check the magazines for correct angle on the retaining brackets. 

[First Sergeant]

I had a similar issue on my WH after it sat for 10+ years in my safe.  My problem was solved with a new recoil spring and it's been running great ever since.  Hopefully you have the same results. 

[Mike Hammer]

Did you experience the same problem using both stick and drum mags?

[Motorcar]

11 hours ago, BLuongo said:

Your problem may be a tight chamber. Original WW2 era Thompson barrels have slightly oversize chambers as do most GI machine guns.

Read up on here by doing a "search" on the WH issues if you haven't already. A WW2 GI barrel would clear up chamber problems. Light strikes or no strikes means the bolt is stopping before the hammer is fully striking the front of the receiver so it can rotate and hit the firing pin. I think PK or Dan can resize the chamber to correct specs.

[dalbert]

Yep, you need a barrel replacement.  The WH barrel was made to pistol specs.  I ran my WH M1 with lead bullets for many years when I first bought it, but when I started shooting FMJ bullets in it, it started having misfeeds, and my unspent bullets looked just like yours.  The copper jacket was not as forgiving when feeding from the mag to the chamber.  I replaced it with a PK barrel, and it's run flawlessly since.

David

[katanafred]

Thanks for posting!  I am looking forward to hearing how your TSMG fires with a new recoil spring, fring pin & firing pin spring.

[1gewehr]

Polishing the chamber may be a solution before you replace the barrel.  As said above, the WH chambers are tight.  Polishing them can sometimes solve the problem.

[Dan K]

You might get ahold of Dave Manson and see if he has pull through reamers for 45 ACP. Tell them what you want to do, open up a pistol spec chamber for SMG. Manson is normally fairly good about knowing the dimensions you will need if you tell them what you are trying to accomplish. You likely can open up the chamber of the existing barrel w/o pulling it. 

[Sig]

1 hour ago, Dan K said:

You might get ahold of Dave Manson and see if he has pull through reamers for 45 ACP. Tell them what you want to do, open up a pistol spec chamber for SMG. Manson is normally fairly good about knowing the dimensions you will need if you tell them what you are trying to accomplish. You likely can open up the chamber of the existing barrel w/o pulling it. 

Can you share Dave Mason's expertise and contact?

[StrangeRanger]

https://mansonreamers.com/

[Dpedersen]

I have a WH barrel with good chamber clearance. It’s a take off from my 11XX range (1980) with compensator. I’ll let it go for $250 plus shipping if you need to replace. It’s still in really good shape. I can send pics when I get off duty tomorrow morning. You can pm me. 

[Dan K]

5 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

https://mansonreamers.com/

That's it. Dave is semi retired, only working a couple days a week. There is a good crew in the shop, any of them should be able to help you. I know they catalog pull through tooling for 308, 30-06, & 30 Carbine, not sure about pistol rounds.

[TSMGguy]

Easiest, cheapest, and least obtrusive solution first: replace that recoil spring, as suggested above. Go with NOS USGI if you can find one. 

[Lawman9328]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:06 PM, BLuongo said:

Your problem may be a tight chamber. Original WW2 era Thompson barrels have slightly oversize chambers as do most GI machine guns. West Hurley barrels are chambered to tighter specs. Also you could check your feed areas in the reciever. I had to polish several areas, mostly by feel i.e. going back and forth from my WH gun to a my Colt 21 and Brigeport 28. Also check the magazines for correct angle on the retaining brackets. 

BLuongo,

It's possible......I'm going to make my 2nd attempt at shooting tomorrow after changing some of the parts.  We'll see what happens !!

[Lawman9328]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:36 PM, First Sergeant said:

I had a similar issue on my WH after it sat for 10+ years in my safe.  My problem was solved with a new recoil spring and it's been running great ever since.  Hopefully you have the same results. 

 First Sergeant....

Hopefully that's all it is.  I don't know how long it had been since it was fired before I bought it.  My cousin, the gun store owner, did test fire it for me before sending it to me and said that it worked fine for him.....but then the Thompson went back into a safe while I was in ATF purgatory !!

[Lawman9328]

On 8/27/2023 at 7:54 AM, Mike Hammer said:

Did you experience the same problem using both stick and drum mags?

Mike Hammer,

Only tried the sticks (both 20 and 30)......didn't fire the drum yet since I want to get it greased before doing so.

[Lawman9328]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:23 AM, dalbert said:

Yep, you need a barrel replacement.  The WH barrel was made to pistol specs.  I ran my WH M1 with lead bullets for many years when I first bought it, but when I started shooting FMJ bullets in it, it started having misfeeds, and my unspent bullets looked just like yours.  The copper jacket was not as forgiving when feeding from the mag to the chamber.  I replaced it with a PK barrel, and it's run flawlessly since.

David

 

Dalbert,

Well, I'm crossing my fingers that won't be necessary but I'll bite the bullet if that turns out to be the only option.  Honestly, I'm not sure my barrel is an original WH or not.  Mine doesn't have the compensator on the front and people say that it looks like the weapon has been nicely re-worked by someone that seemed to know what they were doing.  Do you know if WH put alignments marks on the barrel / receiver ?  Mine has those.....but no other markings on the barrel.

 

[Lawman9328]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:56 AM, Motorcar said:

Read up on here by doing a "search" on the WH issues if you haven't already. A WW2 GI barrel would clear up chamber problems. Light strikes or no strikes means the bolt is stopping before the hammer is fully striking the front of the receiver so it can rotate and hit the firing pin. I think PK or Dan can resize the chamber to correct specs.

Motorcar,

I'm hoping a barrel replacement can be avoided but I have a WW2 Savage barrel standing by if necessary.  I replaced firing pin, firing pin spring, and recoil spring.  We'll see what happens tomorrow at the range !

[Lawman9328]

17 hours ago, 1gewehr said:

Polishing the chamber may be a solution before you replace the barrel.  As said above, the WH chambers are tight.  Polishing them can sometimes solve the problem.

1gewehr,

That seems to be the consensus here on the board.  If my "quick and easy" fixes don't work.....the polishing of the chamber will be Plan B.

[Lawman9328]

17 hours ago, Dan K said:

You might get ahold of Dave Manson and see if he has pull through reamers for 45 ACP. Tell them what you want to do, open up a pistol spec chamber for SMG. Manson is normally fairly good about knowing the dimensions you will need if you tell them what you are trying to accomplish. You likely can open up the chamber of the existing barrel w/o pulling it. 

Dan K,

Thanks for the information.  That will be my fall back plan.  I'm really hoping that I won't have to resort to anything too serious.  I guess this is just the cost of owning a WH !!

[Lawman9328]

14 hours ago, Dpedersen said:

I have a WH barrel with good chamber clearance. It’s a take off from my 11XX range (1980) with compensator. I’ll let it go for $250 plus shipping if you need to replace. It’s still in really good shape. I can send pics when I get off duty tomorrow morning. You can pm me. 

DPedersen,

I appreciate the offer.  I do have a WW2 Savage barrel standing by if I end up needed to change barrels.  Hopefully I won't need to resort to that !

[Lawman9328]

6 hours ago, TSMGguy said:

Easiest, cheapest, and least obtrusive solution first: replace that recoil spring, as suggested above. Go with NOS USGI if you can find one. 

TSMGguy,

I did replace the firing pin, firing pin spring, and the recoil spring.  I'm not sure how used my recoil spring is.  The one I put in seemed a little stiffer than the one that was in it but don't know if it was NOS or used since I bought it in a package with some other spare parts.  I'm crossing my fingers that the fixes I made will be enough to solve the issue.

[Rekraps]

Sounds like a lot of work to get these WH guns running. I was about to consider getting one that was NIB, but now will most likely not do so, opting instead for a USGI M1a1

[TD.]

Thompson submachine guns manufactured by Auto-Ordnance Corporation (AOC) in West Hurley, New York were manufactured to compete at the bottom of the Thompson marketplace. The original retail price as shown in a 1975 catalog was $425. During that time frame, World War II Thompsons were selling for around $800 and Colt's around $1200. The primary reason George Numrich and Ira Trast created AOC in West Hurley was to manufacture and sell the semi-automatic Thompson rifles. This rifle was a product that could be sold in the USA without all the NFA requirements and restrictions. The full auto guns were only a small side venture for AOC WH. That said, we now have approximately 3000 more transferables in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) for civilian ownership.  

I am not a gunsmith but do own a West Hurley Model of 1928. My used WH ran pretty good when I first bought it but changing to a Doug Richardson 21A style barrel really improved the reliability. It was not perfect but ran pretty good, acceptable for my use. The remanufacture by PK at Diamond K Companies made it 100% reliable and simply beautiful. It graces the cover of my third book, A Thompson Compendium.

Lawman9328, I am not surprised with the issues you are experiencing. Based on personal experience and being a Board member for many years I like most suspect your main problem is the barrel chamber. I believe most (maybe all WH) barrels can be brought into proper specifications. I believe Dan Block does this routinely for the WH guns he services for Ruben Mendiola. I would probably opt for changing the barrel to one manufactured to proper specifications. If mine, I would send it to PK and have him install one of his barrels. But you have many options if the recoil spring and other parts do not fix the problem. I know it is aggravating. 

Rekraps, A NIB West Hurley is no guarantee that it will function properly. All NIB means is it has not been tested...yet. After a lot of encouragement from many Board members, I updated my West Hurley Parts story in my latest book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More, to provide information to current owners and prospective owners of the West Hurley Thompson submachine guns. I want those in the Thompson community to be informed about the product. The history is not important at the range. I certainly understand the great expense now days to own a Thompson gun. The WH Thompson guns make this dream available for many. Just be prepared to expect issues that hopefully can be resolved.