Atf redefining who is a dealer

[benedw60]

With the atf new rule in the comment period and with it going to be rammed through by the end of the year making anyone who makes a profit, needed a FFL. Does that mean anyone who doesn’t have an FFL who bought a transferable Thompson back in the 70s or 80s or under 1000 dollars cannot sell it more than that. This would effectively drop the market and allow the younger generation to afford transferable mgs.

 

if so it’s I guess there is a silver lining in the new rule after all

 

 

[Colt Chopper]

In my opinion, they're focused on trying to shut down gun shows. People who are setting up selling things to make a profit that are in clear view.

I've been an FFL for over 25 years, did lots of gun shows in the past, not so much anymore, by choice. I would see the same people show after show, selling their so-called private collection, when all the while they are conducting business, buying and selling for a profit.  In my opinion, these are the ones their focusing on.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Colt Chopper

[RoscoeTurner]

8 hours ago, Colt Chopper said:

In my opinion, they're focused on trying to shut down gun shows. People who are setting up selling things to make a profit that are in clear view.

I've been an FFL for over 25 years, did lots of gun shows in the past, not so much anymore, by choice. I would see the same people show after show, selling their so-called private collection, when all the while they are conducting business, buying and selling for a profit.  In my opinion, these are the ones their focusing on.

You also see the same at flea markets, same guys every month.  Friend of mine from years ago would do that, I warned him of the consequences and he blew that off. 

During COVID being bored I started internet searches for people I had lost contact with and lo and behold during one of those searches pops up a story out of Dothan, AL about several sellers being busted at a flea market, his name was among those arrested.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdal/pr/10-arrested-illegal-gun-sales

[Maine-iac]

Ah yes, the ATF, department of regulating everything people like.

[anjong-ni]

If I recall the case, the "firearms" were plastic "80% receivers" with a couple holes already drilled out.   Phil

[jim c 351]

I can remember. back in the late 70s or early 80s, dealers were not permitted to sell at gun shows.

Dealers could only sell at their licensed place of business.

Gun shows were for good old boys buying, selling and swopping.

Then one day the ATF changed their ruling and permitted dealers to sell at shows.

Everyone was very pleased with the ATF for becoming pro gun at long last.

A fellow named Neil Knox warned us beware, the ATF is no friend. Now we know what they were up to.

Jim C

[Dan K]

11 hours ago, Colt Chopper said:

In my opinion, they're focused on trying to shut down gun shows. People who are setting up selling things to make a profit that are in clear view.

I've been an FFL for over 25 years, did lots of gun shows in the past, not so much anymore, by choice. I would see the same people show after show, selling their so-called private collection, when all the while they are conducting business, buying and selling for a profit.  In my opinion, these are the ones their focusing on.

I agree with this completely. I have only had my license 15 years and I am in the northern part of the state, same thing, same guys here.

It is not worth it to play fast & loose. Pay the fee & get the license. 

[johnsonlmg41]

It's a two way street.  Many guys have large private collections and eventually will want to sell.  They are not "zoned" for sales at home so getting a license under the newer rules is not an option, thus you haul your crap to shows and dump it there.  At one point they went around to shows and asked all these guys to get licenses, then later they changed their minds and came up with all the zoning and bus. requirements and pulled many of the same licenses they urged guys to get?  

Their track record is all over the map.

[Got Uzi]

I’ve had my FFL/SOT for only 4 years now and I can honestly say I am NOT losing sleep over this. It’s been a long time coming. The same guys setting up at shows every weekend buying and selling their “private collections” are the reason this entire mess has come back full circle.
 

While I feel for the guy who is looking to sell off a life long collection of guns, the guy who needs to sell a couple to pay some bills, or wants to trade up into something different are going to be rolled up in this, I can see why it’s happening. Its going to be too hard to tell who is who at this point so everyone hangs together per-say.  
 

On a weekend when I went to a show, would I take something with me as trade fodder? Sure would, but I wasn’t setting up table(s) to buy and sell.  The other ones I love seeing are the guys who will get to the show at 9:00 and be there all day until close and have bought/sold 5 guns from the floor and walk back out the door with more money than they came with. 
 

In the end you can call me “anti gun” but I’m not crying the blues over this as I’ve been of the opinion things needed to be put back in balance after I started working shows with my FFL/SOT

[johnsonlmg41]

I think in the end most have overlooked the broader point......why should you need a license in the first place?  Once you willingly gave up your god given freedom to make things and allowed yourself to be "harnessed", many are surprised when they are "reined"  in? 

If you have skills and a suitable place to make or sell things that doesn't interfere with others, why should you be constrained in your trade?  Not really any different than the health dept. and taxing authorities coming down on the kid with the corner lemonade stand.  They make examples of them for a reason, and are never ashamed of what they do.

[inertord]

[colt21a]

3 hours ago, inertord said:

That is the honest truth spoken there. ABOVE POST.

[jim c 351]

7 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

I think in the end most have overlooked the broader point......why should you need a license in the first place?  Once you willingly gave up your god given freedom to make things and allowed yourself to be "harnessed", many are surprised when they are "reined"  in? 

If you have skills and a suitable place to make or sell things that doesn't interfere with others, why should you be constrained in your trade?  Not really any different than the health dept. and taxing authorities coming down on the kid with the corner lemonade stand.  They make examples of them for a reason, and are never ashamed of what they do.

I  agree.

Jim C

[colt21a]

Look around.. When the Warrior Class is gone in this non bordered land mass. For what we have left will be gone also. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by colt21a

[Got Uzi]

Well I’ll also ask this question-do you like when people are blatantly breaking my the law? Do you like when people are supplying guns to criminals? I sure don’t but that’s just me.  Do you like people openly breaking the law and saying “it’s my rights” well sorry but your idea of your rights and being in business is breaking the law and it’s not fair to those of us who are bound BY THE LAW to FOLLOW THE LAW and do what is required to LEGALLY BUY AND SELL FIREARMS!!
 

Sorry if this offends some of your delicate feelings but here’s the truth of it-there are people who wanna scream “it’s my right” are the same idiots who have no clue how to take the RESPONSIBILITY that goes with those rights!! When people become become fully responsible then maybe my mind will change. 
 

Also-why is this even in the Thompson section? What does this have to do with Thompson’s?

[johnsonlmg41]

Not sure who is breaking the law, but you might be a bit confused?  ATF "regulations" in the CFR are not necessarily laws if they stray too far from the constitution or public beliefs.  Laws are outlined in USC code one of which allows atf to write regulations, most of which comply with constitutional law, but many do not, are not legal, and those regulations are frequently challenged, overturned, and can be ignored altogether.

I don't like it when firearms are supplied to certain criminals, but as we know, atf has chosen to do just that on numerous occasions, with often disastrous results.  As for JimBob moving or flipping some shotguns at a gun show vs. the straw buyers going to the big FFL table and doing all the paperwork on the table full  of cheap handguns and flipping them in the parking lot, nope, not a fan, but that's how those FFL's make the money.

It's a statistical fact your FFL and all the rules have zero effect on crime reduction, but if it makes you feel good, I think it's great!  Heck, we got one guy that claims he was too drugged up to answer the 4473 questions responsibly, and thus it's not his fault?  He's also one of the top 1% earning lawyers in the country (aside from his spectacular art career).   When he gets off, you'll find the entire form is now void, other than it's main purpose as a registration database for the mostly law abiding.

The sooner the FFL program goes away, the better.

Still searching for a copy of John Thompson's FFL as well as John Browning's?   Those two scofflaws should have been shackled early on!!!!

[inertord]

U.S. firearms owners as a whole are the most law abiding people on the planet. It’s not about wanting or not wanting to follow laws, it’s about continual additional firearms laws that do absolutely nothing to prevent crime. I am not aware of one gangster that complied with the 1934 NFA and registered his Thompson. Nor any militant that registered his MG, sawed-off shotgun and pipe bombs during the 1968 Amnesty. Nor one gangbanger that stood up and took heed in May 1986, or registered their streetsweeper in 2001. How many lives were saved due to the 1989 import ban, or saved when bayonet lugs and flashiders were removed during the 1994 weapons ban? I don’t ever remember a rash of drive by bayonet-ings’ before these laws. Arm braces are so dangerous and scary that no one should now be be able to own one without being photographed and fingerprinted, even a disabled veteran who lost pieces of his body overseas fighting communism and wars on terror. 

I can tell of many law abiding, hard working citizens that can no longer afford to own NFA or previously import banned semi auto examples, due to current cost increases from the previous mentioned laws, laws that incidentally didn’t reduce crime. Yet any homie can still bring an AK across from Mexico for a few hundred bucks and probably not be challenged at the border. 
 

After 40 years involvement in NFA, I do not see how any additional firearms laws will prevent crime? I have only seen them preventing law abiding citizens from owning something that they should be able to afford and responsibly own, and held to consequences if misused against another, because hey, this is (or was) America and what hundreds of thousands of soldiers died for, right? The Fudd’s say it’s ok to ban scary things, because it doesn’t affect me, without realizing that it affects everyone and all future generations. 
 

The good news is POTOS just nominated The VP as head of the newly formed White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Don’t worry folks, the kool aid is free, drink up 🤔 

[Maine-iac]

5 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

do you like when people are blatantly breaking my the law

Frankly, yes. Because there are laws that are meant to be ignored, broken, and defied for the public and civic good. To suggest that there's some moral good derived from strict adherence to the letter of the law is nonsense. The law only exists by the consent of the governed. If enough people say "no!", well, there you have it.

[Got Uzi]

Well I guess I’ll just it down and shut up then as I must must not understand how things work. I’ll put it like this, enough people have poked the bear for so long, the bear is biting back and now no one can understand why. 
 

For the argument about the NFA costs keeping people from buying-I completely agree BUT here’s another way to look at it….I want a 1968 Dodge GTX convertible. So by your argument, we should force Dodge to start making them again because I want one and can’t afford it. The common link between both is simple, people think and use them places to hide money. You are your own worst enemy with the costs of NFA. You bitch about the costs, but yet I’d bet you’d just have to have the very top dollar for your stuff when you sell it, even tho you bought it 10 to 40 years ago…..then complain that no young people are able to afford it.  

[RoscoeTurner]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:33 PM, Got Uzi said:

.

On a weekend when I went to a show, would I take something with me as trade fodder? Sure would, but I wasn’t setting up table(s) to buy and sell.  The other ones I love seeing are the guys who will get to the show at 9:00 and be there all day until close and have bought/sold 5 guns from the floor and walk back out the door with more money than they came with. 
 

You make a very good point.  I have been a FFL dealer for well over 40 years and I have seen exactly the same thing you describe at nearly every show I have attended.  Non licensees buying and flipping guns at shows without a care in the world in addition to dealers selling in states they are not licensed without going through the required steps for a legal transfer.  With all this type activity going on who would not be surprised that the anti gun crowd is trying to bring pressure down on shows. 

If any one is at fault for this place the blame where it belongs, put it on the people who make a habit of violating the regulations.  If you don't like the regulations, make an effort to change them but pretending they don't exist is going to do nothing to make things better.

https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/ATF-2023-0002-0001

[Stampcollector]

I asked a ATF agent how many guns you sell a year that would constitute having to have a FFL license. He said there is no number/amount of firearms per year, it all has to do with are you making a living doing it! (And I'm not) I ask because I have been collecting firearms all my life and selling when I get tired of one and sell it. But have never made a living doing it. I just wanted to add this comment for sake of "The Law"

[johnsonlmg41]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:55 AM, Got Uzi said:

Well I guess I’ll just it down and shut up then as I must must not understand how things work. I’ll put it like this, enough people have poked the bear for so long, the bear is biting back and now no one can understand why. 
 

For the argument about the NFA costs keeping people from buying-I completely agree BUT here’s another way to look at it….I want a 1968 Dodge GTX convertible. So by your argument, we should force Dodge to start making them again because I want one and can’t afford it. The common link between both is simple, people think and use them places to hide money. You are your own worst enemy with the costs of NFA. You bitch about the costs, but yet I’d bet you’d just have to have the very top dollar for your stuff when you sell it, even tho you bought it 10 to 40 years ago…..then complain that no young people are able to afford it.  

Maybe you don't understand?  Like the machine gun, the GTX is no longer available because gov clamped down on emissions, fuel consumption, safety regulations, etc.  so the car would no longer be "legal" to produce.  And even if you did manufacture a GTX, in many states you could not sell it directly to your customers, again due to gov. intervention prohibiting direct sales of cars.  Of course you couldn't give away a GTX by 1973, nor any other muscle car, thus once again gov. intervention created that mess with OPEC and lack of drilling here......as history repeats......   Perhaps you are too young to remember when cool cars were everywhere, then all of sudden there were honda civics, pinto's, and other little cars being sold.   ALL created by the gov. by various means and pressures put on industry.

Personally,  I like bears.  Fun to watch, like giant raccoons.    They get a taste of something they like and can't leave it alone no matter how tight you lock it up or hide it, they cannot curtail their desire once they've had that taste.    When they become too big a  nuisance and we can't live in harmony, they have to be put down.  This is how it always ends throughout history.  Are you familiar with the "British empire"?  Gone, put down.

[Got Uzi]

I’m referring to the cost of the GTX now, in todays market and how a bunch of guys with more money than brains have driven the price out of sight (yes pun intended) its the same with NFA-its not made anymore so people with more money than brains have driven it out of sight. Doesn’t matter if the NFA didn’t exist it would still happen as original Colt Thompson’s or WWII MP40’s would still command a price due to rarity and originality. 
 

At this point I’ll say that we agree to disagree on this subject. I see things from both sides, I honestly do, but at the end of the day I’m at the point that I’ve lost sympathy for those that are in the business of buying and selling firearms at every gun show and doing so without an FFL. Do I feel for the guys getting wrapped up in it who just want to down size or sell of their stuff? Yes I do, but again greed and trying to “play the system” has created the problem we now see and sorry to be the one to point out the obvious but there is in fact the “gun show loop hole” and it’s been shown by multiple people in this thread. With the amount of FFL holders on here, it’s not hard to move stuff and just have them run it across their books. I guess I’m at a lose for why someone wouldn’t want the CYA of that knowing your didn’t just sell a gun to a hood rat in sheets clothing. 
 

I’m done and out on this thread. 

[StrangeRanger]

I am in the process of downsizing 50 years of acquisitions, selling off guns that I simply don't shoot and have no real attachment to.  Normally I have 1 or 2 guns for sale along with a pile of firearms related parts and accessories for sale at any given gun show.  I currently will not sell a gun to anyone who does not have an Ohio CCW thus guaranteeing that I am not selling a gun to an ineligible person.  While this essentially performs a background check I realize that many sellers do not follow this practice.  I welcome the advent of universal background checks, I just wish that ATF would find a somewhat less cumbersome way to implement them than requiring FFLs for casual sellers. 

[Colt Chopper]

The focus of the "Crack Down" should be on the gun show vendors that are selling $900 Smith & Wesson SD's, $2500 FN 5/7's, that have signs reading: 

"Private Sale, no background check, no sales tax", knowingly customers that will pay those prices are likely prohibited from purchasing and/or owning firearms.

Not right in today's world no matter how you look at. JMHO