BNZ41 For Sale on Gunbroker

[Robert Henley]

It will be interesting to see how this one does:

Steyr MP-40 9mm Fully Transferable Machinegun WWII - '68 Amnesty Registered - Machine Guns at GunBroker.com : 1029755691

No resting bar and bolt appears to have two serial numbers stamped on it (in picture #57 8917 appears to have been added) among other issues.

I'm not the seller nor do I know the seller.

Robert

[Rekraps]

46 minutes ago, Robert Henley said:

It will be interesting to see how this one does:

Steyr MP-40 9mm Fully Transferable Machinegun WWII - '68 Amnesty Registered - Machine Guns at GunBroker.com : 1029755691

No resting bar and bolt appears to have two serial numbers stamped on it (in picture #57 8917 appears to have been added) among other issues.

I'm not the seller nor do I know the seller.

Robert

So I own a bnz 41 all numbers matching and compared to this:

It's a nice gun! I too  doubt the originality of the bolt (big takeaway) but the rest of the gun seems good. What we don't see is the SN on the barrel thread protector, the front sight base and the folding stock release button. Also, the resting bars did have SN on them also, so another issue. 

IMO, excellent value at $25K, I suspect it will go low to mid-$30's (probably what it is worth). If the bolt were correct (I can only assume the rest matches) it'd be upper $30's.

[TSMGguy]

Looks mostly good to me. The broken or missing phenolic barrel resting bar is typical. On guns that have seen any original service, the finish on the top of the receiver is usually thin or gone above the take down knob at the natural gripping area. The receiver, barrel, and barrel nut all look buffed and lightly refinished. The numbering on the bolt looks period and correct for a replacement part. Not all items used in repairs were unnumbered prior to replacement. 

Edited January 8 by TSMGguy

[reichstall]

So, I am not at all looking to make a fusss. But these guns went through a war and multiple change of hands where no one cared about numbers. So, I find it weird that we make it a deal when it comes to numbers. Yes, some parts are hand fit so numbers truly make a difference and are a large thing. But in reality, I wonder how many that were not picked up off the battlefield and brought back have all numbers matching. Are we promoting an industry to fake numbers matching. The collector car industry has been challenged to the point they are doing metallurgy to forensic id suspected numbers matching high end vehicle. Is this where we are heading.

[TSMGguy]

30 minutes ago, reichstall said:

... Are we promoting an industry to fake numbers matching.... 

Without doubt.

[Mike Hammer]

The Bakelite looks almost too perfect, If I were a bidder I would want to make sure it's not a reproduction.

[Rekraps]

5 hours ago, reichstall said:

So, I am not at all looking to make a fusss. But these guns went through a war and multiple change of hands where no one cared about numbers. So, I find it weird that we make it a deal when it comes to numbers. Yes, some parts are hand fit so numbers truly make a difference and are a large thing. But in reality, I wonder how many that were not picked up off the battlefield and brought back have all numbers matching. Are we promoting an industry to fake numbers matching. The collector car industry has been challenged to the point they are doing metallurgy to forensic id suspected numbers matching high end vehicle. Is this where we are heading.

Good points all, however for us who choose to collect guns with original matching SN's, it does make a difference. Yes the guns mostly went though hell, but there are numerous examples of amnesty and bring-backs that indeed do have numbers matching. Those guns, in the eyes of certain collectors, demand and get a premium on the market. TSMG noted, correctly, that the bolt may have been a field replacement bolt matched to the gun during repairs. Or, it may not be. That particular items is up for discussion, as it would seem odd that the entire gun sans the bolt is matching.

In either case, i stick my my assessment that the gun is a very nice example and commands a good price.

[Rekraps]

1 minute ago, Mike Hammer said:

The Bakelite looks almost too perfect, If I were a bidder I would want to make sure it's not a reproduction.

I didn't even think about that! You are right. I may be, but.....

My pricing estimate still holds though.

[tommyboy]

For some reason it looks like the finish on the receiver tube, barrel and front sight don’t quite match that of the grip frame or stock assembly which show more wear. Almost like the receiver and barrel were reblued in the past.

[Robert Henley]

You can look at TSMGguy's and my BNZ41s for good comparison at the following thread:

 

I see there is a bid now, so going to sell for at least $25K.

 

[Rekraps]

3 hours ago, tommyboy said:

For some reason it looks like the finish on the receiver tube, barrel and front sight don’t quite match that of the grip frame or stock assembly which show more wear. Almost like the receiver and barrel were reblued in the past.

Perhaps the gun was at some point in such poor condition that certain parts were conditioned to preserve it. 

[Got Uzi]

It’s a hell of a lot better gun than the ones on Sturm for $10k more each 

[Atllaw]

Doesn’t it seem like these come in waves?  Haven’t seen anything worth look at in a year, it seems and then and MP38 a month ago and 3 C&R mp40s just today.  Maybe I wasn’t paying attention over the past year.

[Rekraps]

11 hours ago, Atllaw said:

Doesn’t it seem like these come in waves?  Haven’t seen anything worth look at in a year, it seems and then and MP38 a month ago and 3 C&R mp40s just today.  Maybe I wasn’t paying attention over the past year.

I noticed that also! Couldn't find a M3 if your life depended on it then... Wammo, three or four pop up. 

[TSMGguy]

13 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Perhaps the gun was at some point in such poor condition that certain parts were conditioned to preserve it. 

I think you're right. The barrel and receiver assembly, all of it, is much glossier than the rest of the gun. Looks like there was buffing. The original WWII finish, in good shape, would be duller and thinner at the gripping areas.

Here are pics of the subject gun and mine. Note how on my gun the finish is equally thin from handling and use on both the receiver top and the end cap.

 

Edited January 9 by TSMGguy

[Robert Henley]

12 hours ago, Atllaw said:

Doesn’t it seem like these come in waves?  Haven’t seen anything worth look at in a year, it seems and then and MP38 a month ago and 3 C&R mp40s just today.  Maybe I wasn’t paying attention over the past year.

Yes, estate sales or older owners liquidating collection, so the wife and kids don't have to be burdened with it.  Going to get harder and harder to find a nice original gun.

[johnsonlmg41]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:11 AM, reichstall said:

So, I am not at all looking to make a fusss. But these guns went through a war and multiple change of hands where no one cared about numbers. So, I find it weird that we make it a deal when it comes to numbers. Yes, some parts are hand fit so numbers truly make a difference and are a large thing. But in reality, I wonder how many that were not picked up off the battlefield and brought back have all numbers matching. Are we promoting an industry to fake numbers matching. The collector car industry has been challenged to the point they are doing metallurgy to forensic id suspected numbers matching high end vehicle. Is this where we are heading.

Sorry, but we've "been here" for 40 years plus on this stuff.  Lugers have been messed with starting probably 2 years after the war? Welcome to German militaria collecting!

The gun has been substantially "refurbished" in a number of ways.....as have many, and likely, most others.  As a collector you have to set the bar wherever you are comfortable with a price/condition tradeoff.  Refinished Colt Thompsons often bring more money than originals at popular auction houses.....something to keep in mind.

[Rekraps]

6 hours ago, TSMGguy said:

I think you're right. The barrel and receiver assembly, all of it, is much glossier than the rest of the gun. Looks like there was buffing. The original WWII finish, in good shape, would be duller and thinner at the gripping areas.

Here are pics of the subject gun and mine. Note how on my gun the finish is equally thin from handling and use on both the receiver top and the end cap.

 

What was interesting about my MP40 was not the field wear, but the "heavier" wear on the magazine well where the soldier obviously gripped the gun! You cold almost see the finger and palm marks where they wrapped around the mag well.

[Rekraps]

5 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Sorry, but we've "been here" for 40 years plus on this stuff.  Lugers have been messed with starting probably 2 years after the war? Welcome to German militaria collecting!

The gun has been substantially "refurbished" in a number of ways.....as have many, and likely, most others.  As a collector you have to set the bar wherever you are comfortable with a price/condition tradeoff.  Refinished Colt Thompsons often bring more money than originals at popular auction houses.....something to keep in mind.

Correct. Everyone looks at stuff differently and that is why the prices vary so much. 

[RogerD]

I would be surprised if I have 2 matching seral #'s on my Wilson tube gun. As a result, I have a great shooter with none of these issues and all the same fun with one exception.  That would be pride of ownership in having a real collectable.

[TSMGguy]

3 hours ago, Rekraps said:

What was interesting about my MP40 was not the field wear, but the "heavier" wear on the magazine well where the soldier obviously gripped the gun! You cold almost see the finger and palm marks where they wrapped around the mag well.

My gun came with a single 98E 41 mag. It could be original to the gun. Anyway, the mag has heavy, deep corrosion pits where it's been gripped by someone who was right-handed and apparently had really sweaty hands. I figure it took many hours of guard duty to damage the mag to that extent!

I've since collected several other identical mags that vary in condition, but all are in much better shape. 98E 41 mags are pretty common, as are identically marked mag loaders. Made it easy to complete the ensam.

 

 

Edited January 9 by TSMGguy

[johnsonlmg41]

4 hours ago, RogerD said:

I would be surprised if I have 2 matching seral #'s on my Wilson tube gun. As a result, I have a great shooter with none of these issues and all the same fun with one exception.  That would be pride of ownership in having a real collectable.

I'd probably disagree.  There is still pride of ownership of having one of approx 180K guns (with fewer each year) in the registry with a relatively smaller amount of MP40's than other guns in the registry.  If your gun was a thompson, it might have one matching number at most, and your tube is surely much better than a west hurley receiver, and all of your functioning parts are German, which are overall a much higher quality than US fielded guns, even though it's apples to oranges.   All MG's are collectible, there's no disputing that.  Ironically, the government made it so.

[Rekraps]

14 hours ago, TSMGguy said:

My gun came with a single 98E 41 mag. It could be original to the gun. Anyway, the mag has heavy, deep corrosion pits where it's been gripped by someone who was right-handed and apparently had really sweaty hands. I figure it took many hours of guard duty to damage the mag to that extent!

I've since collected several other identical mags that vary in condition, but all are in much better shape. 98E 41 mags are pretty common, as are identically marked mag loaders. Made it easy to complete the ensam.

 

 

Exactly. I have not looked at the mags, but it was obvious (at least to me) that the sweaty hand theory had credibility and the more we discuss it, the more convinced it is true. 

BTW, I have a complete MP40 rig (including transport box etc.) but am shy one 98E 41 mag to make a complete set of seven mags. I have other mags ('42, '44) would you be willing to trade one for one? The mags are original and in good condition (I'd hand pick a nice one). All the mags on GB are $200 each and I have sufficient numbers, just need one of the correct date.

[TSMGguy]

12 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

...all of your functioning parts are German, which are overall a much higher quality than US fielded guns,.. 

Simply not so. US made WWII small arms were miracles of quality and quantity, unique in the world. All parts were interchangeable. Indeed, no hand fitting was allowed, not even to wood. Files were not even allowed to be used by assemblers. German small arms required expert builders and hand fitting. That's why parts were serial numbered. You have some reading to do about the US Army Ordnance Branch in WWII.

My tube MPs are gone, and I've retained a single all matching bnz 41 MP40. Parts fit and functionality are indeed superior to the mismatched parts guns I've owned, IMHO. 

Edited January 10 by TSMGguy

[Rekraps]

4 minutes ago, TSMGguy said:

Simply not so. US made WWII small arms were miracles of quality and quantity, unique in the world. All parts were interchangeable. Indeed, no hand fitting was allowed, not even to wood. German small arms required expert builders and hand fitting. That's why parts were serial numbered. You have some reading to do about the US Army Ordnance Branch in WWII. 

Since I own both US and German, I have looked at both and even though I have to say that the German guns were built with more "care", the bottom line is that the US guns worked fine (kinda like the Russian PPSH) and served their purpose. My Thompson is a wonderful, well crafted machine, of equal quality to any German gun, as is my M1 Garand. Even my M3, while it looks cheap, is actually a very robust piece of machinery and functions just fine. I think there is something about the "feel" and appearance of the German guns, plus the fact that they were so OCD about SN's, when, as Johnson41 points out, it does not make a difference if the gun is designed well.

I am just as comfortable collecting both....