Salisbury, NC Sheriff Selling Colt '28 Navy #3694

[DLansky]

According to the info provided to me by Gordon, the Atlanta PD acquired #3344 on March 9, 1934. In addition a board member was kind enough to send me a copy of a newspaper ad from 1973 indicating that this gun, and 17 other Thompsons (2 of them Colt Thompsons (3482, 12946), were be sold at auction on July 24, 1973.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I stand by my belief these Colt's were sent to Great Britain for testing sometime in the 1920's or 30's and later returned to AOC.

 

The Brits purchased these unknown number of Colt TSMGs "tested" them for years, and then returned the used product back to AOC before the start of WWII? Did the Brits get a refund? If the Brits had these in their possession for that length of time they would have the broad arrow mark on them, yes? AOC then sold these used British proofed Colt TSMGs to police departments before 1940? They sure would not be sending them back when war broke out. They wouldn't be sending these Colts' back to AOC after the war. What sort of facility is required for a British inspector to stamp the frame & receiver with the crown over BM mark? Owners have not reported British proof marks on the barrels of these Colt TSMGs as sold to police departments by AOC.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

The pictures and video appear to show a decent survivor. Not sure where they would have acquired a Colt Thompson in 1966 but I'll wager a little research will show they actually acquired it much earlier. There was no mention of registration status, unless I missed it, so it could turn out to be paper weight or a parts kit......

Greg,

Can you elaborate on this 2004 post of yours as far as the "British inspectors coming to AOC". Thanks.

 

British "proofed" Colts.

 

Interesting side note - Some Colt thompsons were "British proofed" but sold directly from the factory to police departments. I had one, along with the original invoice/shipping papers. I found several like that over the years. A few even had the rear sight graduations in meters. The "crown" proof mark would suggest that at some time British inspectors came to AOC.

 

Anybody got any additional data on that?

 

Greg Fox

 

Edited October 5, 2013 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[OCM]

Mine is a later # 28N, bought in 1935, verified. No marks. The Dillinger Racine Thompson, # 3363 a 28N, resides in the Racine PD collection on display there, if anyone wants to check. My old photos of it, don't show anything, wasn't looking for Brit marks.

As a newbie, always nice to watch the TD / Dutch informational posts & the rest of the pros.

Fun stuff as always.

 

OCM

[TD.]

Arthur,

Show me where I said the British purchased any of these British marked guns. Apparently, the Atlanta PD Colt was British marked prior to 1934. I would not be surprised to learn all of these British marked guns can be documented on the NFA Registry prior to World War II. Again, it is my belief AOC sent a small number of Thompson guns to Great Britain for testing and evaluation sometime in the 1920's and/or 30's. When the testing and evaluation did not result in an order, the guns were returned to AOC. I have no idea of the time frame involved for the testing and/or evaluation. And neither do you. Your reference to "that length of time" is from your imagination. Apparently AOC sold these British marked guns on the open market, most likely at a discounted price. That would explain their presence in the USA.

 

OCM,

I do enjoy the banter! The questions posed on this Board have been the basis for several of my stories. Original research is so much fun.

[DLansky]

I looked closely at #3344 and the proof marks on the upper receiver are "BV" over the crown and right next to it "HP" over a crown. the lower receiver is proofed with the "BV"mark over a crown, there are no proofs on the barrel, bolt, pilot or actuator.

[Melvin]

I own 3482 I will post a few pictures of it later . This is the ad APD ran when they were for sale. http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g216/koalak_2006/DSCN4407.jpg

 

 

[CptCurl]

I have no idea of the relationship of AOC and the British government, but I do know a bit about British proofing.

 

To clarify confusion of the mark being discussed here, let me provide a scan of page 263, British Gunmakers, Vol. 1, by Nigel Brown. I do this with the caveat that any study of British proof marks requires a lot of information from various sources and cannot be summarized in a single page. Brown's information spans quite a few pages in his work.

 

The mark in question was in use from 1916 until 1954.

 

Curl

 

http://rbsiii.com/Guns/Birmingham_marks.jpg

[TD.]

CaptCurl,

Great information. British markings have always been a mystery to me! Can you identify the marking on NO 3684 from the pictures? It appears different from the mark DLansky described. Or is it my tired eyes?

 

Melvin,

Thanks for the additional information. We look forward to comparing the markings on NO 3482 with other known examples.

[CptCurl]

If I could see a clear image of 3684 there would be no problem identifying the mark.

[1921A]

 

The pictures and video appear to show a decent survivor. Not sure where they would have acquired a Colt Thompson in 1966 but I'll wager a little research will show they actually acquired it much earlier. There was no mention of registration status, unless I missed it, so it could turn out to be paper weight or a parts kit......

Greg,

Can you elaborate on this 2004 post of yours as far as the "British inspectors coming to AOC". Thanks.

 

>British "proofed" Colts.

 

Interesting side note - Some Colt thompsons were "British proofed" but sold directly from the factory to police departments. I had one, along with the original invoice/shipping papers. I found several like that over the years. A few even had the rear sight graduations in meters. The "crown" proof mark would suggest that at some time British inspectors came to AOC.

 

Anybody got any additional data on that?

 

Greg Fox

 

Arthur:

 

I don't recall where I got that information but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Brits sent inspectors to A.O.C. probably in the 20's when they were being "courted" by A.O.C. I don't have a copy of Cox's book anymore but it may have come from that source. When did the Brits produce the the BSA versions? Maybe that's the connection. Whatever it was there seems to be more than a few unexplainded "police" 21s with crown proofs before the late 30's when they might be easier to explain.

 

TD, Sig and other board members who do a lot of research would be more likely to have information to prove or disprove such a connection. My experience was more searching, buying and selling than reasearch. I did uncover some information in the process but did'nt have the foresight to preserve most of it. That's the difference between research and business I guess.

 

In a lot of cases, PDs were rather secretive about the guns and would not allow paperwork (other than Form 5s) to be copied or to leave the agency even after the gun was traded. Having personal experience with law enforcement and their record keeping, I think there is a high probability that any agency that possesed a Thompson will still have a file on it.

 

The question still remains, how do we explain the "crown proofed" guns?

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2013 by 1921A

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

Again, it is my belief AOC sent a small number of Thompson guns to Great Britain for testing and evaluation sometime in the 1920's and/or 30's. When the testing and evaluation did not result in an order, the guns were returned to AOC.

 

 

The British would have no need for an Inspector in the USA at AOC or Colt's regarding the Thompson gun prior to World War II. British Inspectors at Savage Arms in the 1940's would not explain British proof marks on early Colt's

 

 

 

The evidence suggests that the Brit proofs on Colt TSMGs did not occur before WWII. That they appear on even 3000 level serial numbers does not mean that these Colts were sold in the 1920's or even by 1939. There are hundreds of Colts in this range with no record of sale listed. Doug Richardson does have the AOC sales records for Colts sold before 1938. Would he provide sales info on these Brit proofed Colts pro bono?

 

However, it appears Tracie Hill agrees with Roger Cox as to some of the Colt TSMGs with British proofs never journeyed across the pond. While Hill does not say there were British inspectors at AOC in 1940 logic dictates that in order for a Colt TSMG to have British proofs without leaving the Continental U.S., representatives from England had to be proofing these Colt TSMGs at AOC. This would be a prudent measure considering the lives that would be at peril during shipping of these weapons. Not much point going through this hazardous journey should the Brits reject these arms ounce they arrived on their island.

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/Colt1928TSMGBritProofs_zpsdf8df2e4.jpeg

[TD.]

Just out of curiosity, how many Colt's do you think were in Auto-Ordnance inventory when Great Britain placed the first recorded order for Thompson guns in February 1940?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Just out of curiosity, how many Colt's do you think were in Auto-Ordnance inventory when Great Britain placed the first recorded order for Thompson guns in February 1940?

 

1940? How about 1951? The number of unsold Colt TSMGs ( as well as Savage/AO TSMGs) that Numrich found in the crates certainly was a not so pleasant surprise for your boy Kilgore who had to settle up with Treasury. Whatever the number of unsold Colt TSMGs that remained in Maguire/AOC storage in 1940 was sufficient to account for the British proof specimens that wound up in U.S. police department arsenals instead of English armories. Again, DR knows how many Colt TSMGs were sold a year before WWII. If we get maybe three of the 3,000 range serial numbers that we know have these British proofs and wound up in police departments perhaps DR would look them up and report if they were the original purchasers.

[TD.]

The evidence suggests that the Brit proofs on Colt TSMGs did not occur before WWII. Your conjecture may suggest this but there is no evidence to support it. That they appear on even 3000 level serial numbers does not mean that these Colts were sold in the 1920's or even by 1939. There are hundreds of Colts in this range with no record of sale listed. Doug Richardson does have the AOC sales records for Colts sold before 1938. Would he provide sales info on these Brit proofed Colts pro bono? May I suggest you perform some original research and look into this question. I believe the NFA registration documents hold the key. Hasn't one example has been cited. Check with Doug and report back. Tell us something we don' t know that can be substantiated.

 

However, it appears Tracie Hill agrees with Roger Cox as to some of the Colt TSMGs with British proofs never journeyed across the pond. While Hill does not say there were British inspectors at AOC in 1940 logic dictates that in order for a Colt TSMG to have British proofs without leaving the Continental U.S., representatives from England had to be proofing these Colt TSMGs at AOC. There is no logic to this statement, only conjecture. You are not going to solve this issue by reading published books on the TSMG. This would be a prudent measure considering the lives that would be at peril during shipping of these weapons. Not much point going through this hazardous journey should the Brits reject these arms ounce they arrived on their island. There was never any chance the British would reject the Thompson submachine gun in 1940; it was the only game in town.

 

Regarding the excerpt from TUTB: Most of this information will be updated soon. The first order of Thompson guns was not open ended. The initial price was not $225. The losses were also not as large as you have been led to believe from many authors over many years. Yes, I will document these statements. It will all be new information, something I bring to the table in my articles.

 

1940? How about 1951? I know all about 1951. Read the Kilogre and Numrich sections in TUTB. What I asked you about was your opinion of 1940. The number of unsold Colt TSMGs ( as well as Savage/AO TSMGs) that Numrich found in the crates certainly was a not so pleasant surprise for your boy Kilgore who had to settle up with Treasury. Whatever the number of unsold Colt TSMGs that remained in Maguire/AOC storage in 1940 was sufficient to account for the British proof specimens that wound up in U.S. police department arsenals instead of English armories. Again, DR knows how many Colt TSMGs were sold a year before WWII. If we get maybe three of the 3,000 range serial numbers that we know have these British proofs and wound up in police departments perhaps DR would look them up and report if they were the original purchasers. If you know a source of information that may resolve this issue then please investigate and report. Most of what you have commented on is half-truths and conjecture designed to confuse. Unsold Colt's - show me an unsold complete production model! Don't bore me with a few unserialized bare receivers. Unsold Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport 1928's in the crates? Show me one.

 

All good stuff!

 

 

[colt21a]

In the grand world scheme of things. of all that is gong on today. really what does it all matter anyhow. will it make you live longer? richer? a better person?cure the worlds ill's.

 

okay so we found number 15039 unsold...now what do we do with that? publish a freaking book about it. shout it to the world , feed a nation. or better yet that info gets us all free healthcare..

 

After a while on this stuff.i bet even J.Curt said wtf lets move on with it already.

 

even Jim Ballou does not care much anymore.{he is just now trying to stay alive and have more day's..}

so now that the unsold numbered gun mystery is solved whats next. the how many could fit in the tommy gun crate theory. or did they really paya $200.00 tax per gun back then.{or was a hidden deal worked out.?} and it was only $178.25 each} and who really did kill the Grimes Sisters?

 

I come back to visit for a spell. and see this. ha ha like the good old days again. .just missing a few of the usual suspect's.

 

and think A.O. only paid $44.05 per gun to Colt.. darn it another windmill to chase..have fun guy's its only life's precious time we waste.and God knows we wasted much of it already. Ron Colt21a

Edited November 6, 2013 by colt21a

[Mike Hammer]

After noticing Ron's icon with a picture from the film "Edge Of Darkness" (1943) With Errol Flynn and the magnificently lovely Ann Sheridan, I think I'll drop all Thompson related stuff for the evening and gaze at that doll, what a babe...hubba hubba. For those of you not interested in Ann, (poor bastards), there is some Thompson action in this one as I remember. Carry on Ron.

 

Mike Hammer

[colt21a]

Now this is a post with real class...years in the making...thanks for the memories. all good one's. and off topic. but somehow very very worthwhile.Ron

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

There was never any chance the British would reject the Thompson submachine gun in 1940; it was the only game in town.

 

Now where did anyone say the Brits were not keen to adopt the TSMG for combat in 1940? You didn't understand the point about proofing firearms in the U.S. prior to shipment? Do you imagine that the Brits nitro proofed the barrels because they had nothing else to do while waiting for the cricket scores?

 

Unsold Colt's - show me an unsold complete production model! Don't bore me with a few unserialized bare receivers

 

Colt 1927AC #5188. What do I win?

 

There were at least 20 Colt receivers with all the Colt & AOC markings on them that could have been completed and sold to the Brits using either Colt or Savage frames and parts in 1940. That we know Maguire did sell complete unsold Colt TSMGs to the Brits is evidence that there were indeed a number well into the two digits, perhaps three digits, that were still available by 1940.

 

Read the Kilogre and Numrich sections in TUTB

 

Are those the only reliable sections in TUTB? It would be helpful if you would present a guide to the information you consider conjecture in TUTB and what you consider as fact.

 

Your conjecture may suggest this but there is no evidence to support it.

 

 

 

 

It isn't my conjecture. It is accepted by several authorities on the subject. It is you who are theorizing. That is why it is up to you to contact DR (and probably pay him $56 for each serial number) to procure the original factory sale and shipping information for these Colt TSMGs with British proofs.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

After noticing Ron's icon with a picture from the film "Edge Of Darkness" (1943) With Errol Flynn and the magnificently lovely Ann Sheridan, I think I'll drop all Thompson related stuff for the evening and gaze at that doll, what a babe...hubba hubba. For those of you not interested in Ann, (poor bastards), there is some Thompson action in this one as I remember. Carry on Ron.

 

Mike Hammer

 

We appreciated General Sheridan in this 2004 thread as well

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1141&hl=sheridan

[TD.]

Now where did anyone say the Brits were not keen to adopt the TSMG for combat in 1940? You didn't understand the point about proofing firearms in the U.S. prior to shipment? Do you imagine that the Brits nitro proofed the barrels because they had nothing else to do while waiting for the cricket scores? I say the Brits were not keen to adopt the TSMG in 1940 - but it was the only game in town. I will document this statement soon. You don't understand that there were not enough Colt's left in AOC inventory when the Brits became interested in the TSMG to warrant sending the proof house janitor over to the USA. And yes, I can document this too.

 

Colt 1927AC #5188. What do I win? Nothing, but I do applaud your reading ability. If true, it is obvious why this one Colt may not have been sold. But I would still like to the see the NFA Registration papers to confirm this report.

 

There were at least 20 Colt receivers with all the Colt & AOC markings on them that could have been completed and sold to the Brits using either Colt or Savage frames and parts in 1940. Key words - could have! That we know Maguire did sell complete unsold Colt TSMGs to the Brits is evidence that there were indeed a number well into the two digits, perhaps three digits, that were still available by 1940. I could believe a few two or three digit used Colt guns were available in 1940 if you could provide some documentation and the serial numbers. What I would dispute is the idea these were sold to the Brits. It is much more likely they were provided free. Yes, I can establish some Thompson guns were provided to the British without charge. See my story in the 3rd Quarter 2013 issue of Small Arms Review magazine - you will enjoy the read.

 

It isn't my conjecture. Actually, it is all your conjecture. Speaking about something proves nothing. It is accepted by several authorities on the subject. It is you who are theorizing. That is why it is up to you to contact DR (and probably pay him $56 for each serial number) to procure the original factory sale and shipping information for these Colt TSMGs with British proofs. Again, I believe the key is the NFA Registration documents on these British marked guns. I suggest you quit talking and start providing information that we don't know - like all the authors provided in the TUTB! The reason you don't do original research is because it is hard work and can be expensive.

 

But I do enjoy the banter

[CptCurl]

Gents,

 

Does anybody have detailed photos of the British marks on these Colt TSMGs being discussed? I would like to see them for the useful information they provide (e.g. a date mark).

 

Curl

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Gents,

 

Does anybody have detailed photos of the British marks on these Colt TSMGs being discussed? I would like to see them for the useful information they provide (e.g. a date mark).

 

Curl

 

Colt 1921 barrel stamps seems to show a "B"? "8"? over a definite "M" which is different from the B.S.A. crown over "BM" as seen on the receivers and frames on some Brit marled Colt TSMGs. The crossed scepters with what appears as a "B" would indicate it was inspected in 1923/24... Yet Tracie Hill maintains this Colt TSMG never left the States.

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/IMAG15152_zps4a86e036.jpg

[Colt Chopper]

What is the statis of the sale of this one, has anyone heard ?

 

Just curious

[darrylta]

I guess we can blame that on the editors too?

 

We could all be like Clinton,,,"WHAT DOES IT MATTER" Naw, now I have to wash my

mouth out with soap :-)

 

-Darryl