Saelio Enterprises Is Not Happy

[colt21a]

WOW what a story here,probably some jerk-off moron wanting to rub up to kahr, or heck they can just read these board's like everybody doe's and have the info they need. but i assume they just read the ad like everybody else on the net...and want them to stop selling them... however i bought a repro "Crosby drum"

so i don't think they have a leg to stand on.

 

good luck with the fight. and i hope you bring in 1,000 more.

 

and i'm sure nobody here on this board did anything... pure speculation.

 

unless somebody had a ax to grind with kahr, and stupidly complained about the drum and said this company made a better one.

 

who know's it will get debated for day's, everybody have a good night. R Ron

[Norm]

I don't see what the big deal is here.

 

Someone is making an aftermarket magazine for a brand of gun. Many companies do this.

 

As others have stated, they did not use the Thompson logo, and besides- I don't think that Kahr really owns the Thompson name to begin with.

 

Maybe if Kahr would get their $#!t straight and make something that worked out of the box, they wouldn't have to worry about these drums!

 

I think that The Crosby Co., would have a better case than Kahr.

 

Norm

 

[21 smoker]

IIRC Crosby made refrigeraters,retooled for WWII like Singer,RemingtonRand,Westinghouse,Inland,GM,Ford,etc...and you don`t see them suing other companies over manufactoring of gun related parts...even if they work!.. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[bug]

The Crosby Co is alive and well in Buff NY after 100 years. Someone posted that here earlier in one of the drum threads but little was said of it.

 

Maybe the next run WILL be Seymour. They seem to have vanished from the earth. like AOC.

 

Interesting.

[jpw43]

That letter from the law firm is ridiculous! I believe, like others on the board, Kahr is PO'd that some upstart actually made a working product that hit a home run on the frst try.

Take 'em in front of Judge Judy...it'd be a 5 minute episode http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jpw43]

Forgot to ask...has anyone e-mailed that moron Cahr yet? Or is that a bad idea.

[keepshooting.com]

Please don't email anyone, as it won't help.

 

 

[reconbob]

Brian - this sale of drums raises once again the question of the Thompson trademarks.

There is some question as to whether the word "Thompson" and the bullet logo

are truly in the public domain and the trademark office incorrectly awarded what is essentially

a duplicate trademark to West Hurley in the 1980's.

The quick fix here is for you to modify your advertising to say things like "fits original Thompson

submachine guns", as opposed to "Thompson drums". Patents run for 17 years, and the patents

for the Thompson ran out before WWII so telling you, or anyone to stop making parts is absurd.

The drums are not marked "Thompson" and they do not have the bullet logo so you are on safe

ground. Look at the dozens of companies selling AR-15 and M16 parts and guns, which was

originally a Colt patent-protected product. (but only for 17 years)

I would change the plate that says Crosby. The Crosby Company still exists and would have

a much stronger argument that your supplier is counterfeiting goods.

The original Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists and is listed as "inactive" at the New York

Department of State website. No one has ever provided any evidence that the then "new"

Auto-Ordnance Corp of West Hurley NY bought and had transferred to them the orignal

Auto-Ordnance trademarks - if so they would not have applied (40 years later) for a trademark.

I would think that 40 years of open use by a variety of businesses making and selling

"Thompson" parts would be enough to establish the public domain.

One general note - I don't think there is a mole on this forum. I think that the Kahr

people monitor it....

 

Bob

Edited March 6, 2007 by reconbob

[Bob]

Think they are marked "Thompson" Bob, that's the rub.

[jpw43]

Agreed, no e-mail. Let it run it's course. I'm sure it will blow over.

Are the names on the waiting list still valid? Or do we need to sign up again when the drums are re-listed on the website?

 

Brian, you WILL win this one!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE (Bob @ Mar 6 2007, 11:53 AM)

Think they are marked "Thompson" Bob, that's the rub.

No rub at all. Keepshooting.com does not use the name "Thompson" in a bullet logo. If Crosby doesn't care about their name used on a replica L drum, why should Kahr care about the name Thompson (as used on their replica versions of this firearm) being stamped on replica L drums. At least Crosby was contracted to make drums for "The Thompson Submachine Gun." Kahr has never made a drum for "The Thompson Submachine Gun" since all they make are semi auto versions. Yet they insist on erroneously stamping "Thompson Submachine Gun" on their drums.

[Norm]

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Mar 6 2007, 02:32 PM)

QUOTE (Bob @ Mar 6 2007, 11:53 AM) Think they are marked "Thompson" Bob, that's the rub. No rub at all. Keepshooting.com does not use the name "Thompson" in a bullet logo. If Crosby doesn't care about their name used on a replica L drum, why should Kahr care about the name Thompson (as used on their replica versions of this firearm) being stamped on replica L drums. At least Crosby made drums for "The Thompson Submachine Gun." Kahr has never made a drum for "The Thompson Submachine Gun" since all they make are semi auto versions. Yet they insist on erroneously stamping "Thompson Submachine Gun" on their drums. To help prove AF's point, read this email that I that is alsmost a year old.   Take note of where it states "will not function in full autos"....           Norm,   Good Morning! Thank you for your email. We expect to start shipping the 100rd Drums in May. However, they are made for the Thompson semi auto versions, therefore we expect that they will not function properly with the Full Autos. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.   Thank You Kahr Customer Service ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:47 PM Subject: 100 round drum     > Hello, > > I was wanting to know if you could tell me when Kahr will start selling the 100 round drum (#T14KT) for the Thompsons? > > Also, will this drum fit and function in a Colt 21 full auto? > > Thanks, > > Norm >

[full auto 45]

Screw 'em brian, I'll still take the ones I ordered. Commie bastards!

[delta6]

Guys:

You all need to slow down here. Some of your posts will only be helpful to Kahr's court case. Winning or loosing a lawsuit is generally not the issue. In the long run, the guy with the most money wins, even if he loses!

 

Kahr has a legitimate issue here, if they can prove that the drums, were "perceived" to be associated with their "name brand" Thompson. If proven, then they could conceivably ask for a cease and desist, damages, judgements, etc., and yes, even have the sold drums returned (or at least get the sales list from Brian and they could file a court document to have you return them).

 

The trademark issue is a whole 'nuther' ball game. If persued in court, who knows what a judge would decide and if given to a jury....well, that's another mess unto itself. I guess I wouldn't about worry that.

 

Having said all that, and having a number of lawyers that will probably earn enough on this case to make that 2nd home payment if the case goes forward (I'm not dissing attorney's here, just the facts), the real issue will be what you thought you bought. Perception will be and generally is reality! Simply, did you purchase a "Thompson" drum or a drum that fits a Thompson? From reading the posts on this site, one would get the impression that all of you are bright enough to realized that you could not buy a real "Thompson" drum for $199. There are even posts here that are great proof. You understand the difference between the terms orignal and replica. You were also bright enough to understand that either from a friend, the Internet or from whatever source (you did your homework) that these were not Kahr labelled or manufactured drums. In fact you most of you went to great lengths to be sure they were not Kahr drums. This will greatly hinder Kahr's claim that the drums, purchase of the drums, sale of drums, resale of the drums or the advertising of the drums, was in anyway perceived or intended to intentionally create a sales atmosphere, that would intice buyers to purchase these drums, by the use of deceptive advertising or by attaching the thought that another manufacturer or company label was the real and original source, when in fact it or they were not.

 

Plain English.....I, a reasonable person, knew these were not original drums. I made sure these were not Kahr drums, because Kahr drums do not work reliably (in semi or full guns). I have not seen any advertising from the original seller that would make me believe that they were anything other than a reproduction. I did not and do not have any reason to believe that these drums have anything to do with or have any relationship to, anything associated with AOC, Numrich, 'Thompson', Tommy Gun, Kahr, etc., or any other trademarked logo or name.

 

Plain and simple.

 

delta6 http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

[giantpanda4]

Brian,

 

I was reading this ad - note the part about no thompson logo....

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem....p?Item=66465142

 

Sounds like you are not the only one they are going after. But how the heck can they say anything about a WWII part?

 

Yes, I know they are in Poland. Just noticed the text.

 

FYI I just found a B'port drum this morning for $400 (I should add I bought it locally from a dealer friend - not here on Gbroker!) - with a 1936 Nassau st 3rd printing booklet thrown in. Looks like shit next to your Crosby!

 

Good luck!

[mattmer]

My .02.

1. Any court in the country (or sane person) would not mistake these for Kahr drums. These work. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

2. I bought 2 and have already sold them to some drum poor shooters at a range I attended. I hope they don't come looking for them, 'cause I don't know who the purchasers were, and I'm not going to look.

 

MattGinOK

[Hawkeye_Joe]

I sold mine too......yeah .. that's tha ticket.. sold it..um.. don't know who.. yeah.....Maybe I'll ask my wife.......Morgan Fairchild who it was .. yeah....

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE (giantpanda4 @ Mar 6 2007, 05:38 PM)

Brian, I was reading this ad - note the part about no thompson logo.... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem....p?Item=66465142 Sounds like you are not the only one they are going after. But how the heck can they say anything about a WWII part? Yes, I know they are in Poland. Just noticed the text. FYI I just found a B'port drum this morning for $400 (I should add I bought it locally from a dealer friend - not here on Gbroker!) - with a 1936 Nassau st 3rd printing booklet thrown in. Looks like shit next to your Crosby! Good luck!

The Polish seller mentions no Thompson bullet logo not because of Kahr's weasel ways, but because this is a third pattern United Specialties L drum. It wasn't until the fourth pattern that the "Thompson Bullet Logo" was added.

 

If there is anyone committing subterfuge in Thompson items it is Kahr itself. There is nothing in their product list that has anything to do with The Thompson Submachine Gun.

[TactAdv]

QUOTE (keepshooting.com @ Mar 5 2007, 08:01 PM)

Hey Guys, My only points will be the following--- 1) We have taken down the page for the new drums for now.  After legal review this may change, or may not. 2) No reasonable person would ever mistake these as being THOMPSON brand products. 3) We get these sorts of letters from time to time.  Nothing new.  We tend to comply with reasonable requests and act in good faith.  4) Was shocked to find out that SAEILO ENTERPRISES / KAHR ARMS / AUTO-ORDNANCE is a Unification Church / Moonie / Sun Yung Moon Front Company. You can see this for yourself at this url: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecente...es_us_front.htm Your throughts?

2) No reasonable person would ever mistake these as being THOMPSON brand products.

 

-------------------------

They are not. You are reproducing a replica of a product manufactured by the Crosby Co. during the time they were contracted by the US Government to produce the drum magazine during a national emergency.

 

Two salient points here:

-the drum drawings were provided by the US government during WW II, who then supplied them to various contractors. There was NO remaining patent protections existing on the drum magazines at the time of the contract letting. Secondly, had the drum been under patent protections the name of "Crosby", or any other contractors name, would have had to have been supplemented by patent informations.

 

-the drum design is long past ANY patent issues, period. There were NO continuations in part, or extensions of protections, filed on the L drum design, period. This is why the US Government could contract the drum mfgr out freely without any Rights issues or compensations to Auto-Ord at the time.

 

-Moon has money, lots of money. Even so, you are astoundingly clear here with NO issues that are of a serious nature. This is a scare tactic ploy, he has no legal ground to stand on.

[sevengunner]

Why not have some fun with this?

 

Change your ad to:

 

Thompsen eL-Drums, 50-round

Crossbee Manufacture

Otto-Ordnance Corporation

 

Send them a list of names and addresses copied out of a city phone book.

 

Make a bunch of mag bodies out of cardboard and send to them.

 

Sven

 

 

[Elbow]

I think it's a good time to organize a CLASS ACTION against Kahr for the junk they sold use all(drums). Then kick them where it hurts. Then may be they would shut their face up and comply to customer complaints. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nutkick.gif

[DougStump]

Brian,

 

I’m not a lawyer (and I didn’t sleep at a Motel 6 last night).

 

I’d market them as “compatible with originally manufactured Colt, Savage, and Auto Ordnance model 1921, 1928, and 1928A1 sub machineguns. They may not be compatible with some poorly made modern replica Thompsons.â€

 

Notice how third party software is marked “Windows compatible†and Bill Gates can’t sue them.

 

It sounds like we have an anti-trust legal issue here. They are trying to stop you from selling a competitive item that is better then theirs. I’d post a copy of their letter on your web site.

 

Doug

 

[DougStump]

Phil,

 

In this day and age, it always seems to boil down to: which side can hire the biggest lawyer!

 

Now this is waaay of track, but I have to brag. I had to go out to the range Saturday before last to renew my Louisiana concealed handgun permit. Since I had to go to work immediately after, I didn’t want to waste time picking up brass. So I hauled the Colt Model 1917 out of the safe and loaded up a bunch of full moon clips. I went up against various new pistols including Glocks and a new Springfield XP. Do you have any idea how satisfying it is to out shoot everybody with a 90 year old revolver?

 

Doug

 

[Hawkeye_Joe]

That's gotta feel good....

[skoda]

I bought the Keep Shooting drum specifically because it was NOT a Kahr product. I only want products that work. If it was a Kahr drum I would have passed if the price was $1 each. I can't be bothered goofing around on a POS piece of scrap metal.

 

If Keep Shooting corrects their verbage to 'for Thompson' or similar they should be O.K.. No lawyer is going to waste their time at this point because the damages for 200 drums times $50 (assumed 25% profit margin) won't add up to enough cash for them to risk their time for all of the research, documentation, court filing fees, etc.

 

They should get their supplier to get off the Crosby name or at least get a letter of approval from them. How about "Chicago Typewriter Ribbon Drum" or "Chopper Drum" or "GI Joe's Best Buddy"..........