Potential cause of concern with Indianapolis Ordnance

[Rekraps]

Okay, so I've done business with IO (Jason) for years, no issues. The quality of the product is excellent and up until recently, the customer service was also very good. For the record, I only do business with firms or people that stand behind their products and act in a good business fashion.

On January 4th of this year I ordered a replacement Lanchester firing pin and mainspring. IO mailed out a package on January 5th, with USPS/Tracking. By January 11th, the package had not departed Indianapolis, so I contacted IO and let them kI now. I was told (appropriately) that IO has no control over USPS and to give it some time. What bothered me was that Gabriel, who responded, said that if the package did not arrive in another week, they would help me file a claim!

What? How can I file a claim on a package that I did not mail, nor have any ownership of?

I responded that I would wait, but the expectation that the issue was mine to resolve bothered me, and I expected them to deliver or replace or refund.

On January 18th I followed up (tracking still showed the item was in Indianapolis) and asked them ro send another unit. I told them if somehow the first showed up, I'd either pay for it or return it. Gabriel responded and said he would check the post office but if it could not be found, I'd have to file a claim with USPS, and they would not send another package. 

On the 19th, I sent yet another note and let them know how disappointed I was and that I would post a summary of the situation on MGB. I then initiated a disputed charge with the CC company.

Jason then responded to me and said I was entitled to my opinion. Basically, tough luck.

As it turns out, the package (no further tracking history) suddenly arrived today. Parts, as usual, of excellent quality. BUT......

I would highly caution anyone doing business with IO to understand that they take no ownership or responsibility for anything they ship. You're on your own if it gets lost or is not delivered.. As for me, this was the last purchase. And I've done plenty of business with them. 

Very disappointed with how they handled this.

I'll look elsewhere.

[Babyface Nelson]

Wow, I use to do business with Jason at I.O in the distant past. Never had a issue , he was very informative and accommodating.

He made great custom stuff for me.

Currently,  I was going to place an order for a for “grease gun” items but now I’m very hesitant to do so.  

Im so sorry you experienced this. What a shame.

[jim c 351]

I had something similar happen with the USPS and gunbroker.

I ordered 2 telescopes from two different companies, one much farther  than the other. at the same time.

The farther companies scope arrived in a few days.

The closer companies scope just sat there with no movement on the tracking number. I gave the seller of this scope a poor review . but when the scope finally arrived I realized that it was the PO fault not the seller and changed my review.

Lesson,--not all post offices are created equal.

Jim C

[Got Uzi]

Personally-I wouldn’t have shipped you a second package either. I’d wait until it was officially “missing” then file a claim for a missing package then send a second one.  Some guys (myself included) aren’t big enough in a niche market to just send out more inventory on the promise you’ll pay for it. Not everyone has morals anymore. Many would just say “oh free parts, yah me” if both arrived. 
 

You can file a claim as the buyer and the seller can as well. That way the USPS has it on both sides of the package. It helps with the claim of a missing package being legitimate. 
 

I’ve had similar situations with items being shipped. Sent stuff to a guy on Monday and a second package the next day….the second package arrived 6 days ahead of the first. 
 

It could also be a case of the label was created but didn’t get out the door on time. Not condoning it but I can tell you that I’m a one man band, doing gun work, a full time job, still moving slowly, and trying to have time with my wife. There are times it might take me 3-4 days to get something shipped out as I literally don’t have the time to be “Johnny on the Spot” and have it out the same day. 
 

You are entitled to your opinion, but in this situation I would say that you are in the wrong side of things. Are you allowed to be upset that things took longer than they should? Yes but once something is shipped it’s out of the sellers hands. If you paid for it to be shipped USPS and that’s how it was sent, especially right after New Years when the system is still overloaded, then that’s a gamble you have to take. Once it leaves the sellers hands it’s out of his or her control so don’t be pissed and leave bad reviews on then when they have no control. Now, if the shipping label was created but wasn’t picked up for 2 weeks then you have a case to be upset, but given what you have said, it was shipped, updated then  sat….and sat….and sat…..all the while in the hands of the USPS. Not the sellers fault and no reason to demand a refund or a replacement. It’s called “call USPS and ask WTF?!” Done it multiple times and it does help….fyi I’m sure I’m one of the ones that’s referred to for “training purposes”

[StrangeRanger]

FWIW I had it take over 2 weeks for a first class letter to reach Lexington KY from Akron OH, roughly a 5 hour drive, and many packages arrive without any tracking updates beyond the initial USPS "in possession."  The USPS is extremely variable in what they consider to be "service"

Edited January 20 by StrangeRanger

[Rekraps]

9 hours ago, Babyface Nelson said:

Wow, I use to do business with Jason at I.O in the distant past. Never had a issue , he was very informative and accommodating.

He made great custom stuff for me.

Currently,  I was going to place an order for a for “grease gun” items but now I’m very hesitant to do so.  

Im so sorry you experienced this. What a shame.

My history with him was also excellent, he custom made a replacement M.P.18,I bolt for me. I just don't understand why he would take the position that anything he ships is the customer's responsibility. 

[Rekraps]

42 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

FWIW I had it take over 2 weeks for a first class letter to reach Lexington KY from Akron OH, roughly a 5 hour drive, and many packages arrive without any tracking updates beyond the initial USPS "in possession."  The USPS is extremely variable in what they consider to be "service"

You are 100% correct, I guess my issue is with his position on "items" that have shipped and who is responsible for them. I have never know a merchant to hold the buyer responsible for items purchased but not delivered.

[BillinBama]

USPS is inept at best.  Back in June I  mailed a box of STEN mags to NH to a re-enactor/instructor after receiving his payment.  After about a week he emailed me to say the tracking showed they were still in Birmingham, AL.(Everything I mail from my NE Alabama town goes to B'ham first).  After another week I contacted USPS and got a call from someone with a heavy INDIAN/PAKI accent saying tracking showed still in B'ham (Doh! I could see that), and to give it 30 days and then file a claim.  He later called again to tell me to not wait 30 days but go ahead and file.  I did.  Then a week or so later the buyer tells me they showed up, although the box was broken open and only half the mags were still in it(inside a big plastic bag that USPS used to contain boxes they destroy).  We both filed claims and mine were denied three times even though I supplied all the documents/info required.  It was shipped Priority Mail, BTW.  So, long story short, USPS is inept at best and they can't track their own shipments.  Makes me hesitate to mail a MG registered mail anymore.

The Paul Harvey 'rest of the story' is that the buyer has fallen off the earth, I have heard nothing from him since August, repeated emails go unanswered, so I'm wondering if he maybe died?  He seemed OK to get half the mags as I sold them to him at a really good price, so hope he died happy.  He has/had a website which I checked several times but it hasn't changed since last summer, adding evidence to my theory that he has passed. 

  

[RoscoeTurner]

5 minutes ago, BillinBama said:

USPS is inept at best.  Back in June I  mailed a box of STEN mags to NH to a re-enactor/instructor after receiving his payment.  After about a week he emailed me to say the tracking showed they were still in Birmingham, AL.(Everything I mail from my NE Alabama town goes to B'ham first).  After another week I contacted USPS and got a call from someone with a heavy INDIAN/PAKI accent saying tracking showed still in B'ham (Doh! I could see that), and to give it 30 days and then file a claim.  He later called again to tell me to not wait 30 days but go ahead and file.  I did.  Then a week or so later the buyer tells me they showed up, although the box was broken open and only half the mags were still in it(inside a big plastic bag that USPS used to contain boxes they destroy).  We both filed claims and mine were denied three times even though I supplied all the documents/info required.  It was shipped Priority Mail, BTW.  So, long story short, USPS is inept at best and they can't track their own shipments.  Makes me hesitate to mail a MG registered mail anymore.

The Paul Harvey 'rest of the story' is that the buyer has fallen off the earth, I have heard nothing from him since August, repeated emails go unanswered, so I'm wondering if he maybe died?  He seemed OK to get half the mags as I sold them to him at a really good price, so hope he died happy.  He has/had a website which I checked several times but it hasn't changed since last summer, adding evidence to my theory that he has passed. 

  

It isn't just the USPS, this past summer I shipped a package via FedEx to Charlotte, MI, it ended up in Charlotte, NC.  FedEx swore up and down it had been delivered to the correct address.

[tricky9914]

I sell lots and lots of things over the internet. I am of the opinion that the customer is entitled to have their product delivered in the condition promised. If it is delivered damaged, or not delivered at all, I take responsibility and try and recover my losses with the carrier. After all, they paid ME to ship it. This gives us incentive to package our inventory well and do everything we can to get the package to the customer safely.

With that being said, if a package is lost, I need to be given time to track it down or try and recover it before I'll send a replacement or reimburse the customer (at least 30 days or so). 

Most online vendors have their shipping and replacement/reimbursement policies on their website. If not listed, then I'd ask before ordering. I personally would also not do business with a company that says "you're on your own if USPS loses it". ESPECIALLY if the item is expensive... too risky when someone I don't know is packaging and shipping my item, and that person has 0 incentive or obligation to do anything other than hand it off to a USPS driver. Nope.

Just my opinion... Though I have never lost a customer from lack of standing behind my promise to deliver. 

Edited January 20 by tricky9914

[Rekraps]

11 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Personally-I wouldn’t have shipped you a second package either. I’d wait until it was officially “missing” then file a claim for a missing package then send a second one.  Some guys (myself included) aren’t big enough in a niche market to just send out more inventory on the promise you’ll pay for it. Not everyone has morals anymore. Many would just say “oh free parts, yah me” if both arrived. 
 

You can file a claim as the buyer and the seller can as well. That way the USPS has it on both sides of the package. It helps with the claim of a missing package being legitimate. 
 

I’ve had similar situations with items being shipped. Sent stuff to a guy on Monday and a second package the next day….the second package arrived 6 days ahead of the first. 
 

It could also be a case of the label was created but didn’t get out the door on time. Not condoning it but I can tell you that I’m a one man band, doing gun work, a full time job, still moving slowly, and trying to have time with my wife. There are times it might take me 3-4 days to get something shipped out as I literally don’t have the time to be “Johnny on the Spot” and have it out the same day. 
 

You are entitled to your opinion, but in this situation I would say that you are in the wrong side of things. Are you allowed to be upset that things took longer than they should? Yes but once something is shipped it’s out of the sellers hands. If you paid for it to be shipped USPS and that’s how it was sent, especially right after New Years when the system is still overloaded, then that’s a gamble you have to take. Once it leaves the sellers hands it’s out of his or her control so don’t be pissed and leave bad reviews on then when they have no control. Now, if the shipping label was created but wasn’t picked up for 2 weeks then you have a case to be upset, but given what you have said, it was shipped, updated then  sat….and sat….and sat…..all the while in the hands of the USPS. Not the sellers fault and no reason to demand a refund or a replacement. It’s called “call USPS and ask WTF?!” Done it multiple times and it does help….fyi I’m sure I’m one of the ones that’s referred to for “training purposes”

Of course I value your opinion, however what got my goat was IO saying "I had to file the claim". Not a chance. If I buy something and it does not arrive, then it is 100% not my issue, the merchant has to make it right. What am I missing?

[Rekraps]

50 minutes ago, tricky9914 said:

I sell lots and lots of things over the internet. I am of the opinion that the customer is entitled to have their product delivered in the condition promised. If it is delivered damaged, or not delivered at all, I take responsibility and try and recover my losses with the carrier. After all, they paid ME to ship it. This gives us incentive to package our inventory well and do everything we can to get the package to the customer safely.

With that being said, if a package is lost, I need to be given time to track it down or try and recover it before I'll send a replacement or reimburse the customer (at least 30 days or so). 

Most online vendors have their shipping and replacement/reimbursement policies on their website. If not listed, then I'd ask before ordering. I personally would also not do business with a company that says "you're on your own if USPS loses it". ESPECIALLY if the item is expensive... too risky when someone I don't know is packaging and shipping my item, and that person has 0 incentive or obligation to do anything other than hand it off to a USPS driver. Nope.

Just my opinion... Though I have never lost a customer from lack of standing behind my promise to deliver. 

So I agree you guys. I should have waited a bit longer, but I was just floored by his intimating that I had to file a claim. That's just not going to happen.

[Rekraps]

5 hours ago, BillinBama said:

USPS is inept at best.  Back in June I  mailed a box of STEN mags to NH to a re-enactor/instructor after receiving his payment.  After about a week he emailed me to say the tracking showed they were still in Birmingham, AL.(Everything I mail from my NE Alabama town goes to B'ham first).  After another week I contacted USPS and got a call from someone with a heavy INDIAN/PAKI accent saying tracking showed still in B'ham (Doh! I could see that), and to give it 30 days and then file a claim.  He later called again to tell me to not wait 30 days but go ahead and file.  I did.  Then a week or so later the buyer tells me they showed up, although the box was broken open and only half the mags were still in it(inside a big plastic bag that USPS used to contain boxes they destroy).  We both filed claims and mine were denied three times even though I supplied all the documents/info required.  It was shipped Priority Mail, BTW.  So, long story short, USPS is inept at best and they can't track their own shipments.  Makes me hesitate to mail a MG registered mail anymore.

The Paul Harvey 'rest of the story' is that the buyer has fallen off the earth, I have heard nothing from him since August, repeated emails go unanswered, so I'm wondering if he maybe died?  He seemed OK to get half the mags as I sold them to him at a really good price, so hope he died happy.  He has/had a website which I checked several times but it hasn't changed since last summer, adding evidence to my theory that he has passed. 

  

What I like about your story is that you tried, as a seller, to make sure the buyer got it! That's all I'd ever ask. 

[ron_brock]

Everyone expects instantaneous gratification.  Not enough time had passed before considering it lost, IMO.  The PO sucks, but it’s not the seller’s fault it sat somewhere longer than it should have.  seems the total time was like 16 days It also likely missed getting scanned somewhere along the road, but you are certainly free to share your experience and not buy from them again.  
 

This is something any seller should watch.  If you don’t get an initial scan that it’s been accepted (ie you print your own label and drop it off or have it picked up) and the carrier does not scan, it doesn’t exists until it finally gets scanned somewhere along the line.  This can be days or weeks later.  Until then, it’s not tracking as shipping and if you file a claim, the PO will say they have not received it.  Just a word of warning as I have seen this happen many times.  It’s always arrived to the recipient, but makes an awkward conversation saying “I shipped it” but it’s not tracking.  

[Got Uzi]

By you filing the claim it gives the PO something to go on from both ends. Technically it’s no longer the sellers problem as he/she/it has passed it onto a bonded currier. At that point it is between you and the shipping service. 
 

Been there, done that, got the headaches to prove it. 

Edited January 21 by Got Uzi

[Rekraps]

11 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

By you filing the claim it gives the PO something to go on from both ends. Technically it’s no longer the sellers problem as he/she/it has passed it onto a bonded currier. At that point it is between you and the shipping service. 
 

Been there, done that, got the headaches to prove it. 

Interesting perspective, but if that's the case, why do/will the credit card companies immediately issue a credit if the purchaser did not receive the merchandise? I use credit card just so I am protected in the event that a product that I paid for is not delivered, or arrives broken or is the wrong item. Yes, it's correct to try to work it out with the merchant, however there comes a time when that seems fruitless. The CC company's perspective is that the merchant is responsible to ensure delivery of what a buyer ordered, thus they placing the responsibility to file claims with the shipper for something they sent, that the buyer never saw or received. It would be total chaos if the buyer were held responsible!

All this said, you guys are right, I should have been more patient with the USPS shipping times....

Thanks to you all.

[Lewisfan]

Anecdotal story - wife shipped package with Fed-Ex (if I remember correctly) several years back (pre-covid).  It was plates to our son who lived in CA at the time.  She had tracking.  Plates traveled, per their tracking, from east coast (us) across country to CA (very close to his address), then took a circuitous path back and forth across the country again over the next 2 weeks.  The package went to TX, up to NE (or similar midwest) back to somewhere else totaling 18 extra stops in a very random fashion.  It finally came back to PA and everything inside, despite careful packing, was shattered into pieces.  The label and address were just fine (and correct).  It cost more to ship the Goodwill-purchased plates than she paid for them.  Stuff happens...

[johnsonlmg41]

The claim is generally filed by the shipper, because they have/had control of the packaging and the process.   In the case of USPS, it's totally out of control by everyone, including the PO and there is no recourse, you just wait and suck it up.

I had RIA ship some stuff on my Fedex account last year and they failed to notify me or provide tracking.  They shipped to another address, and only because I have an account did Fedex call me to tell me they were on their third try and if I was going to pick it up in 7 days.  Long story short, even though on my account, they would not redirect the shipment to the correct address.  That's just how it works.  The part that annoyed me is when it got back to RIA they sat on it for at least a week before they reshipped.  In my business, we fix current problems before continuing on to new business.

The only way to get something out of USPS is if you know a union steward at the hub where it's last seen.  I had a package stolen in Denver, high value, insured, and tracked.  Long story short, the postal police made an announcement about it, and effectively the union "found" it, handed it over to postal police,  who was forced to turn it over to atf.  They would not even refund the postage, much less the damage to the item.  That claim was exhausted after initial filing and 2 appeals, all denied even with the postal police record of theft and non-delivery.  The final step is federal court if you want to recover losses from USPS....be forewarned.  The only worse place is the " USPS mail recovery center" where nothing is ever recovered.

Customer service is always difficult on shipping, but not making an effort or saying TS you are on your own....not a good play....ever. 

[Rekraps]

6 minutes ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

The claim is generally filed by the shipper, because they have/had control of the packaging and the process.   In the case of USPS, it's totally out of control by everyone, including the PO and there is no recourse, you just wait and suck it up.

I had RIA ship some stuff on my Fedex account last year and they failed to notify me or provide tracking.  They shipped to another address, and only because I have an account did Fedex call me to tell me they were on their third try and if I was going to pick it up in 7 days.  Long story short, even though on my account, they would not redirect the shipment to the correct address.  That's just how it works.  The part that annoyed me is when it got back to RIA they sat on it for at least a week before they reshipped.  In my business, we fix current problems before continuing on to new business.

The only way to get something out of USPS is if you know a union steward at the hub where it's last seen.  I had a package stolen in Denver, high value, insured, and tracked.  Long story short, the postal police made an announcement about it, and effectively the union "found" it, handed it over to postal police,  who was forced to turn it over to atf.  They would not even refund the postage, much less the damage to the item.  That claim was exhausted after initial filing and 2 appeals, all denied even with the postal police record of theft and non-delivery.  The final step is federal court if you want to recover losses from USPS....be forewarned.  The only worse place is the " USPS mail recovery center" where nothing is ever recovered.

Customer service is always difficult on shipping, but not making an effort or saying TS you are on your own....not a good play....ever. 

I guess that's my point. Remember my PPSH was lost for 41 days, but the shipper (seller) was great and worked it to death. in no way was he going to hold me responsible...

Maybe IO was having a bad day...

Thanks again to everyone for the input. Wisdom comes with good counsel.

[NFA amnesty]

I purchased a gun part on Gunbroker and was shipped from the midwest to my location on the west coast.  I tracked my package on USPS and it went to Hawaii and then to Guam!  The seller contacted the post office and it eventually arrived in Central Oregon a week later.  The seller took full responsibility and was more upset than me.  I thought it was funny in a way that it went all the way to Guam.  He was going to fully refund my purchase.  I left a great review for him but did not mention the item traveled half the world away.  Great seller.  

On a side note, I have purchased several items from Got Uzi including a very expensive item that is awaiting ATF approval.  John has been excellent to work with and I know he would help me if something got lost......Hi John.   That is one reason I do business with him.   I would be taken aback if a seller would not help with a lost item.  But I would also ask what process I would need to follow and if they would help if I got the run around from USPS.  However I would also expect the seller would do the heavy lifting and "do the right thing" if it never gets delivered to me.

Jim C 351 did a post one time, and sure I am going to mess it up but went something like, you could have the best reputation in the world but if you rob a bank, you will forever be known as a bank robber.  Kind of stuck in my brain and so true in life.

 

[Rekraps]

16 hours ago, NFA amnesty said:

I purchased a gun part on Gunbroker and was shipped from the midwest to my location on the west coast.  I tracked my package on USPS and it went to Hawaii and then to Guam!  The seller contacted the post office and it eventually arrived in Central Oregon a week later.  The seller took full responsibility and was more upset than me.  I thought it was funny in a way that it went all the way to Guam.  He was going to fully refund my purchase.  I left a great review for him but did not mention the item traveled half the world away.  Great seller.  

On a side note, I have purchased several items from Got Uzi including a very expensive item that is awaiting ATF approval.  John has been excellent to work with and I know he would help me if something got lost......Hi John.   That is one reason I do business with him.   I would be taken aback if a seller would not help with a lost item.  But I would also ask what process I would need to follow and if they would help if I got the run around from USPS.  However I would also expect the seller would do the heavy lifting and "do the right thing" if it never gets delivered to me.

Jim C 351 did a post one time, and sure I am going to mess it up but went something like, you could have the best reputation in the world but if you rob a bank, you will forever be known as a bank robber.  Kind of stuck in my brain and so true in life.

 

Excellent points. Got Uzi is in fact a good guy (I only know him from the Forum, but over time you get a sense of people). I have also worked with several of the Forum members in buying and trading parts and it's all worked out well. 

This will be my last post on this particular thread, but I want to leave it like this: I will not do business with a merchant (or person) who tells me that once the item is mailed it's out of their hands and tough luck. I just can't and won't do it.

[Ryo]

Got Uzi won't ship you a replacement.. What a great guy. (Ony Joking) 

 

Seriously it really depends on the situation. I understand both sides. Business is for making money and any lost packages sucks because if you didn't get insurance it's a loss for the seller if they refund/replace/charge back.

[Rekraps]

I'd buy from Got Uzi any day! In fact, everyone I've dealt with on this  Forum is top shelf.